How Much Freedom Is There On FF?

[DQue]

Well yes DQue, the benefit of the doubt would have to go with chton over the guy who admits to having been told to calm down "many times" on another message board. Even it was just four times, it would be four more than Ive received telling me to "calm down" on Fetnoir the entire decade or so of membership.

That we know of.

Im not sure if you're best buds with elsulo or his direct sock puppet or whatever

I'm not - it should be evident by the difference in the way we write, I would think, but if you find it comforting to think that I could "side" with him over you and chton only because we have some sort of secret link, well, whatever you need to get through your day, I guess.

but chton had a valid argument concerning members treatment on this board, (which is evident in this conversation)

If this thread is any indication, he didn't. I admit I haven't looked outside of this thread, so perhaps he's made an eloquent case elsewhere. I doubt it. But my jumping into this isn't based on whether FN or FF has a better record or style regarding how it treats its members. First it was due to an absolutely frivolous equating of anarchy and freedom that I thought should be countered, and then it became based on chton insisting on other things that are demonstrably not sensible. Now I'm here countering your obvious bias. Had you not decided to offer your opinion in the matter, I wouldn't have said anything further, at least not until chton replied, if he ever returned.

and you can agree or disagree with him and move on, but it seems neither of you want to do that and are hell bent on making it an "us vs them" argument for the sake of doing so.

You're not clear on what person besides me you're referring to when you say "neither" - me and elsullo? Me and chton? But it's not really relevant. For me, at least, it's not "us vs. them", it's "reasonable vs unreasonable." Is it reasonable to equate FF and China? Obviously, I don't think so. Is it reasonable to complain about being criticized if one is also doing quite a lot of criticizing? Again, I don't think so. Is it reasonable to imply one user has "anger issues", as if he's dangerous somehow, when everything he's done is either explainable or not any more outrageous than the person he's arguing against? Should I even need to say it?

As for me, Im not sure I want to spend the entirety of my time on a death fetish message board endlessly battling someone I dont know over issues that dont really concern you and arent going to agree about. If that makes you happy, the rest of this thread is yours. Knock yourself out.

Disclaimer: I do not claim to represent the majority opinion on this board, or any other opinion, for that matter, besides my own. That said: Flounce away.

[jhsnuff]

redeemer503 and chton: "I'm not allowed tom have a dissenting opinion" -- while voicing a dissenting opinion.

Blue has been far more gracious than I would have been. "Don't like it -- there's the door." And if you had pulled this crap on FN, GraceX would have done more than send a polite PM.

Wotta pair of dumbasses.

[redeemer503]

jhsnuff: " if you had pulled this crap on FN, GraceX would have done more than send a polite PM."

But again, Ive never received ANY PM's from GraceX regarding my conduct whatsoever, (and for DQue, I dont assume you must've if I have no knowledge whether or not you have), while elsulo has admitted to "many", so what kind of "crap" are you accusing me of pulling? Of being accused of being an infiltrator or being in league with them, as had chton, as had xj900uk?
We're supposed to be OK with that?
Being thats a subject between bluestone and ourselves. Im not sure why it is you or DQue feel this involves you anyway.

[DQue]

Im not sure why it is you or DQue feel this involves you anyway.

This thread appears in a forum that can be read and replied to by all members. It may not involve me directly, but by posting your complaint openly in this manner, you make it so that it can be commented on. If you were truly concerned about my involvement, or that of others, you could have prevented it entirely by not complaining about this matter where other people could read it. You could have sent Bluestone a polite PM with any concerns, and left it at that. But you didn't. So here we are.

(I mean, I could be wrong, but it seems apparent to me that you wanted to make this public because you thought there'd be more public support for you and so you could throw it in Bluestone's face, only it hasn't worked out quite like you figured.)

Again, if it wasn't obvious from my exchange with chton, you can't reasonably make a big public stink about things and then hide behind some double standard of conduct when some of that stink gets blown back at you.

[redeemer503]

DQue: "You could have sent Bluestone a polite PM with any concerns,"

Yes, for that matter so could bluestone if he had any concerns right? Im sure GraceX would have done that, but bluestone is not GraceX and he went with an open board.

This makes my open response with my concerns fitting, and no, as you could read, Im not the only one treated that way in the open, not in a private message, there was more concerns about how this board has been moderated by others who had noted it.

That still leaves you and jhsnuff: You are absolutely welcome to add your two cents because you are right, it IS an open discussion. What I continue to ask is why? What difference does it makes to you? What is it you get out of this discussion?

[Zufallx]

[DQue]

DQue: "You could have sent Bluestone a polite PM with any concerns,"

Yes, for that matter so could bluestone if he had any concerns right? Im sure GraceX would have done that, but bluestone is not GraceX and he went with an open board.

Yes, the two boards are not the same, and this seems to be the cause of the situation: you've come here and decided to participate since Fetnoir is down, but you are disgruntled that Bluestone has his own way of dealing with things. Instead of adapting yourself to the way things are done here, you would like this place to adapt itself to your own preferences.

GraceX might not have handled things this way, but this isn't GraceX's board, is it? Why should Bluestone - who's operated his own board for years - need to be the one to bend to satisfy you?

But that's really irrelevant: I told you the basic fact that you posting this openly has allowed it to be brought to my attention; trying to shift the blame to Bluestone is really missing the point. I didn't find Bluestone's statements objectionable, it was chton who got my attention, and then you, when you decided to white-knight for him. You are certainly free to openly criticize Bluestone's style of management, as you have been doing, but you can't do that and then gripe and moan about it when people turn around and do the same to you. That would be hypocrisy, to insist that you have a right to criticize others but people who criticize you are somehow interloping or sock puppets or otherwise don't have a legitimate reason to call you out on your own behavior.

This makes my open response with my concerns fitting, and no, as you could read, Im not the only one treated that way in the open, not in a private message, there was more concerns about how this board has been moderated by others who had noted it.

That still leaves you and jhsnuff: You are absolutely welcome to add your two cents because you are right, it IS an open discussion. What I continue to ask is why? What difference does it makes to you? What is it you get out of this discussion?

Because I think you (and chton) are being unreasonable, and I think I am demonstrating this by the way this conversation has been going. Because now we're not even discussing the merits of the issue any more so much as you're trying to side-step the original topics with this "I don't know why you're getting involved" tactic. Does it matter? I am involved now, and it both amuses and satisfies me to point out where your logic and reasoning fails.

[redeemer503]

DQue: "Does it matter? I am involved now, and it both amuses and satisfies me to point out where your logic and reasoning fails."

Which has been your motivation this entire time. Your skin in this fight was the fight. This wasnt about the betterment of this board or anything other than how clever you can pretend to be and how much of an asshole you can be.

If "Stop Violent Porn" were clever about placing in infiltrator to drive away membership, it would do no better than you.

Have fun. Im done with this board.

[Bluestone]

Have fun. Im done with this board.

... and there he goes again! It's been a pattern with Redeemer over the years. He arrives, tries to stir things up... and leaves in a huff when he doesn't get anywhere with his tantrums.

No great loss. It's not like I'm forcing people to come to FF and enjoy the company of fellow fetishers. I guess his parents just never taught him how to play nicely with others.

Blue

[jhsnuff]

We're better off without either of them.

[DQue]

This wasnt about the betterment of this board or anything other than how clever you can pretend to be and how much of an asshole you can be.

Let's be real, you weren't really pushing for the betterment of the board, either. If you really wanted to change things for the better, you would have done things in a far more well-thought-out fashion. Did you really think some snide, sarcastic remarks were going to suddenly make anyone think, "wow, how wrong I was! Surely this person insulting me has a far better idea of how to run things!" So, pot, kettle, etc.

Besides - to stand up against bad thinking does indeed better this board, in that some people might think twice about spouting off some badly-formed argument if they can't handle some pushback. I see it as encouraging better thinking, or at least discouraging crappy thinking.

If "Stop Violent Porn" were clever about placing in infiltrator to drive away membership, it would do no better than you.

Let's put it this way: if how I've acted in this thread is sufficient to wreck a community, that community wasn't very strong at all, was it?

Have fun. Im done with this board.

Flounce away!

[chton]

We're better off without either of them.

Keep treating people who disagree like this and you can soon have the board to yourselves as perfect echo chamber where no one dares disturb perfection with any different ideas.
I should note some folks took a more reasonable tack, but it seems that rocking the boat is scary and since this board has operated so well with so few new people contributing that why should it change.
People looking for a place like FN need to look elsewhere, which is fine. That's what's great about the internet, you can find someplace else and let this remains a club for those who like it.
Some people thought this would be a good alternative, but I guess only if you like witch hunts if a new person posts and everyone toe the line of be removed.
Also, I still await where I demanded changes and demanded things be my way. All I said is this isn't the place unless you agree. It sure would be a change for this place to be infiltrated. It doesn't seem it will take much to wreak havoc since the place is primed from management to be paranoid. It won't take much to do damage here.

[DQue]

Again, it's hard to see how anyone can expect to effect any change or even real discussion if they insist on being condescending and insulting about it. "I guess everyone else is stupid and wrong! Also, why doesn't anyone listen to my wisdom? I don't understand why they just don't see things my way!"

[chton]

Again, it's hard to see how anyone can expect to effect any change or even real discussion if they insist on being condescending and insulting about it. "I guess everyone else is stupid and wrong! Also, why doesn't anyone listen to my wisdom? I don't understand why they just don't see things my way!"

I know, I don't get why you have that attitude.

[DQue]

I know, I don't get why you have that attitude.

I mean, of course that's something you'd say, it's an easy comeback, but it illustrates my point. You've come in making all kinds of disparaging remarks, but either you don't have the slightest bit of awareness of how you come off, or you don't care at all. Why would anyone be welcoming to that kind of attitude? The problem with being infinitely welcoming to anyone at all, no matter how much of a jerk they're being, is that eventually the space fills up with jerks. You're trying to dress this up in a cloak of being the iconoclast who "tells it like it is" or whatever, but as long as you sneer at other people for being "scared" or in an "echo chamber", it's absolutely astounding if you think that was ever going to work and make people take your concerns seriously. Epater les bourgeois, I guess, that sure worked out for you.