Are we Porn?

[GraveDancer]

Since John started to post definitions, here' another one for you, from Merriam-Webster:

por·no·gra·phy

1. the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual excitement
2. material (as books or a photograph) that depicts erotic behavior and is intended to cause sexual excitement
3. the depiction of acts in a sensational manner so as to arouse a quick intense emotional reaction <the pornography of violence>

I like this definition, because it's unbiased and not pejorative. It doesn't define porn as a matter of content or quality, but of intent. When it comes to death fetish material, viewers will buy it almost exclusively for their own sexual excitement. Which means that if a producer's intent is to sell his product, his intent to cause sexual excitement is implied.

As a result, there's absolutely no difference between someone who produces fully clothed death scenes and someone else who produces explicit necro rapes. They both know very well in which way their products will be consumed - and that makes them both pornographers.

And there's nothing wrong with it (as long as it's been done by consenting adults), sexual entertainment should be as high regarded as any other profession. There's a whole world full of things much worse than causing sexual excitement.

The question isn't if what you're doing is porn, the question is... why aren't you proud that it is infact porn?

[Den-CnB]

Just a really quick post since family is over.

When I was fired from my US Government agency they stated ( paraphrased) and a primary reason I was being fired: "I had sole ownership of porn site" and carefully avoided using the criminal term 'obscene'.

Like DrDon, I argued that there was only nudity and No sex but that got no traction. When the group who judged me and after viewing my site, clearly thought I was the sickest fuk in the world! (they used other words but said the same..... I couldn't argue with that conclusion!)

Dennis

Just have to Edit in: If our government says it's porn - it's porn. If you can't believe our government who can you believe!!

[Dalila di Capri]

Dennis my love!

You have said some things about court rooms and how our material would be viewed in them, but I did not know this particular story.

So, I am a porn star according to the US government, even when I am wearing clothes, but I will sell 10 times as many videos if I appear nude.

Well then it makes sense that I should look for adult advertisers for my future productions.

And I had better stick with my workout routine.

BTW this is what I find pornographic:

A government that sends young men off to war for no good reason.
Ugly women who gossip about pretty women just because they are pretty.
The assertion that Rap music is actually music.
People who cheat social systems created to help the truly needy.
Church goers who break every rule of their faith yet judge others.

I could go on...

Baci

[Bluestone]

Very interesting topic!

Definitions are fine as far as they go, but it is really perception, I believe, that truly defines anything. When people refer to pornography, they generally exclude mainstream material. Restricted movies may contain rape scenes, nude scenes, sex scenes, etc., but since they are only a small portion of the overall movie, they are acceptable. Sex sells everything in mainstream magazines, but people don't really purchase Hustler for the articles. Thus, it is with our industry. We take the one or two clips out of the mainstream movie and expand on them. This is what I'm doing with my upcoming "Frenzied Obsession" and "Psycho Slasher". "Frenzy" and "Psycho" were not pornography simply because Hitchcock inserted the death scenes into a mainstream movie. My videos will no doubt be considered to be pornography, because they will be perceived to be concentrating mostly on the erotic deaths of beautiful women. Yes, I don't have explicit sex in my videos, but they are certainly meant to be erotic, and they will be perceived as pornography by the general public. Well, does that make it pornography? Not necessarily, because the same public perceive us to be dangerous woman-hating perverts. That doesn't make it so. Neither does public perception make me into a pornographer or Dalila into a porn actress. I have a perception of pornography too, and, in my perception, the people here are wonderful, well-adjusted individuals who merely enjoy a harmless fetish, and Dalila, Petra, Suzi and many other wonderful actresses are definitely not porn actresses, and I do not sell or promote porn.

So, I guess it all depends on whose perception you are using

Blue

[JohnM]

A couple more thoughts.

While anything in "mainstream" is not generally referred to porn, the proliferation of violent horror movies in the last several years has earned the term "torture-porn". Movies like SAW, HOSTEL, and countless others both wide release and direct to video...etc.

My feeling was that these were mostly released due to a simple swing in treads. Folks got tired of the PG-13, Scream-inspired horror movies of the 90's and there was a call to go "back to the roots" of cheesy, exploitation horror. So, I think this was what happened, a hybrid of Texas Chainsaw violence and slasher/stalker plot lines brought about theses various incarnations that relied on exploitation. There is nothing wrong with that, but after a while it gets old. There will be a new shift and something else will happen. Whether it will be labeled "porn", who knows. It's really up to the bloggers anymore.

Now, on porn in general, I have often run experiments in content and marketing just to see the "mood" of the market. While there is a craving for porn, torture and rape right now (and I think there always will be), I still fine a solidly produced fetish movie sells regardless.

Case in point. I released "My Revenge" last weekend. It met or beat sales from many of my best selling movies with those other more extreme elements. The movie was as basic in fetish as you can get. An attack, two strangles, some sim-sex and body positions. It was completely lit with natural light. No explicit content--not even close-ups.

And, that happens all the time. When it comes down to it, just make a good movie, regardless of content. I think that is ultimately what the audience in fetish and mainstream want.

JohnM

[JohnM]

To clarify, Paul was citing comments I made on two other forums. Here was the question over at the GIMP forum.

"Does Hollywood in any way contribute to violence against women? And do violent images and ideas become normalized so we as a society become desensitized to them? What is your opinion? "

And, I gave a simple answer: yes.

To clarify...

I said YES because I don't feel I can say absolutely with 100% accuracy, NO.

I could have said no...then the opposite sentence above, but I felt it was a better lead in to my comments. My view change all the time about things...for now it is yes, tomorrow I will read a study paper and it may be a no or a maybe.

Regardless whether there is subtle influence from movies, just like a Burger King commercial, if I go out any get one after watching it, I am the stupid idiot that just downed a 2500 calorie whopper!!!

Thanks,
JohnM

[EvilBilly]

Hey, if I go out to get a Whopper, it's because I want one. A commercial might remind me it's an option as a meal I might have forgot about but in no way are they getting me to do something I don't want to do nor am I of the impression it won't make me fat. The commercial basically tells you it's yummy and most of the time it is. :)

Paul

Mmmmmm...Whopper... :idea:

This is a really interesting topic, presenting very valid opinions. Personally, to me porn is the depiction of actual sexual acts whether the participants are nude or partially clothed. As long as the train is seen going into the tunnel to me that's porn.

What the vast majority of producers here create I would not consider porn. There are some who do produce death videos with (what I consider) porn in them.

[Dalila di Capri]

What we are talking about here is the sexiness of the taboo.

Imagine this for a moment:

Paul of KHP, master FX man that he is, decides to do a self gutting film.

The victim cannot go on with life.

A knife sits on a white pillow.
The victim grabs it.

We see a close up of an undulating belly

The nude victim kneels and then stuffs the blade in to the quivering belly
The victim then draws the blade upward to the sternum.

The belly is cut open, guts ooze out, perhaps even the recently eaten whopper. The victim writhes , undulates in all sorts of serpentine ways, spits up blood and then finally dies...eyes wide open, with just the faintest smile on the lips.

Who is the Victim?

Britton?
Kamryn?
Dalila?

No...The Victim is ....Paul.

All of a sudden we are either saying "Yuck" or "what a rip off" or "well that's boring".

Why?

Because men die all the time. For ages men have died these kinds of deaths in battle. Or defending their families. This is the natural order of things.

What is subversive is the idea of a woman putting herself in the same situation.

Men are told "Don't hit girls"
Most of the time the armies of the world do not put women in the heat of the battle.

It is unusual for women to be gangsters shooting each other, or warriors defending their country with their very lives. It goes against the natural order. And going against that order is a sexy taboo to break.

Also, many women use their bodies and their sexuality to trap and hurt men.

The other subversive thrill is to punish the woman who does this is a phallic and appropriate way.

Thus the big phallic knife in the soft belly or breast: The male destroyer punishing the female asset of seduction. Not to mention that the belly and breasts are woman's sources of life to mankind. The ultimate act of subversion is for a man to gut the belly that bore him or stab the breast that suckled him.

Is it really so sick or twisted?

I think not.

Baci

[JohnM]

Hey, if I go out to get a Whopper, it's because I want one. A commercial might remind me it's an option as a meal I might have forgot about but in no way are they getting me to do something I don't want to do nor am I of the impression it won't make me fat. The commercial basically tells you it's yummy and most of the time it is. :)

Paul

And watching a porn reminds me I need to get laid. Sometime, I act on it. The porn did not make me do it, but it may have had a part in influencing my decision.

That is all I meant. I would not blame the porn for getting laid, but in the police interview afterward I would say something like "I didn't know that was illegal in this county and besides...the porn made me do it"!!! :-)

MMmmmm Whopper....now you did it!!!!!!!

JohnM

[Dalila di Capri]

Just for that, I'm going to do a video where I get gutted! And it will be right after I have a triple Whopper! Won't that be messy. lol

The great thing about porn is though it might remind you to go out and get laid, you can choose to just stay home and not deal with the possible rejection and still have a party...for one. hehe. I only wish I could do that with a Whopper! Get satisfied without leaving the couch. Just stay away from the Whopper Jr. That will get you into real trouble!

Hi Paul

At least you have actually get to have a whopper.

You want to guess at the last time I ate a burger???

Every time I turn around you and Bluestone come up with yet another stunning model and I say "Damn, 20 more minutes of stair work for me!!"

Seriously I only pointed you out becuase you had mentioned the whopper and you are one of the few producers who actually do the disembowelment from knife plunge to entrails and whopper falling out of a belly.

Please however, pretty please when you do it use Kamryn instead.

And make sure the poor girl gets to eat a whopper first.

Baci

[JohnM]

Priceless :-)



JohnM

[Dalila di Capri]

Now See?

John M's model was so starved and happy to see that whopper that she swallowed it whole.

John M: "Now Trixie, you do realize that your pimp sold me to you and I am going to gut you for real don't you?

Trixie: "Yeah yeah sure just shut up and give my the damned whopper. I haven't had a decent meal in weeks."

2 minutes later:

Trixie" OOOh I shouldn't have eaten so FAST. I have the worst belly ache now.

John M "Let me see what I can do about that"

Splish

Trixie "Uhk....Believe it or not that actually feels better....uhk."

Baci

[Dalila di Capri]

I'm not blaming the whopper.

I'm blaming the typical actress/model's diet.

Poor Trixie was so starved that she swallowed her whopper whole.

I doubt that there were sausages for breakfast. I'll be that Trixie's last meal before the whopper was a bowl of chicken brother two days earlier.

No...those were poor Trixie's guts lying at her feet.

Baci

[kelli]

well, it's certainly no surprise that everyone disagrees with me. i mean, most of those who disagree are producers ffs. duh. it would be like the tobacco companies acknowledging the dangers of smoking.

be that as it may.....i think i was unfairly misquoted. I did NOT infer that any movie or video clip would persuade someone to kill another person. what i do maintain tho is that the constant barrage of violence in popular culture, especially video games, desensitizes young people towards it.

someone mentioned that people who commit the crimes need to stop blaming outside influences and take responsibility for their own actions. agreed, but will that stop the escalation of violence? kids should take responsibility for their own actions when it comes to teenage pregnancy too. it just doesnt happen. i don't have answers. just questions.

but i always feel ganged up on here and at DS and anywhere else i voice an opinion. if i always wanted to be wrong, i would hang around my family.

[Bluestone]

Kelli,

Am I missing something here? I've reviewed all of the postings on this thread, and I see nothing posted by you. If I'm one of the producers who has disagreed with you, it would be helpful to know what you said, where you said it, and then I could comment. Maybe, I've been sitting too long at the Hemlock Bar, but I really don't understand what you're referring to in your post. As for your comments about DS and other places where you voice an opinion, please don't put FF in the same category. I.M.H.O., FF is as different from DS as spring water is from petroleum... and they mix just as well too

Blue