Are we Porn?

[Den-CnB]

kelli posted

"well, it's certainly no surprise that everyone disagrees with me"

"always feel ganged up on here and at DS and anywhere else i voice an opinion. if i always wanted to be wrong, i would hang around my family."

I feel this way about my posts most of the time and wonder if I post something that people can relate to in their life or online. You in particular post very good questions and statements most of us struggle with., All are on point, make good sense, and makes me think. Many I can't answer since I have no clue what the answer is.
One of the biggest mysteries in my life is why I feel as I do about this fetish and rather feel like an outcast. Most of my posts are opinion since I have almost never feel I have 'the answer'. I feel most of the posters post on that basis and looking for validation, and answers along with knowing that we are not alone in this confusion.

Like your relatives who give you a bad time, I have ex wives that serve me well in keeping me fully saturated with ill remarks. I don't need more of it on any forum.

Dennis

[Bluestone]

Of course, all honest opinions are valid and worthy of respect. I just don't know what Kelli's opinions are on this porn topic, since they don't appear to have been stated on this thread, and I certainly didn't delete them

Blue

[kelli]

so sorry blue.....there was crosstalk between here and that other place. sometimes i forget where i am. things were said there that kind of drifted over here. simple as that. and no, u didnt disagree with me. yet. anyway, sorry for the confusion. hugs

[kelli]

((((((((dennis))))))))))) i feel your pain, darlin

[Dalila di Capri]

Actually Kelli I am a bit confused...

You see, Penn Paul started a mirror thread to my "Are we porn?" question at DS.

I saw that John M had posted a comment about these kinds of films perhaps causing some to behave violently.

I took a slightly different position than John, accepting that they could perhaps cause some people who are already imbalanced to act out these fantasies in real life, and others to turn to the material instead of acting these fantasies out in real life.

I really didn't consider you in the argument one way or the other.

My comments, if you were indeed addressing them with your post, were not directed at you or your opinions.

I also pointed out that:

A sexy woman like Beyonce just shaking her ass could cause some imbalanced guy to want to commit a sex crime

Horrible sex murders have been happening since biblical times, all without the benefit of necro films

I myself was really stabbed and can absolutely testify that there is a huge difference between my over the top extreme films and a real life stabbing. (Namely that RL stabbings are much bloodier than my most bloody films.)

I would also like to point out that both Geno and Blue have a long standing history of deleting any mention of enjoying RL violence against women.
I applaud them for that.
To a person every producer I know, myself included, speaks out against RL violence against women.

I don't think that puts us in the same category as the cigarette companies.

If you do, you are entitled to your opinion, but yes, I do disagree with your opinion.

That is not an attack upon you, but simply an issue wherein we disagree.

Baci

[Bluestone]

so sorry blue.....there was crosstalk between here and that other place. sometimes i forget where i am. things were said there that kind of drifted over here. simple as that. and no, u didnt disagree with me. yet. anyway, sorry for the confusion. hugs

Hi Kelli,

I very seldom go to DS unless summoned. It is a very negative place in my opinion, so I'm not planning to go over there, especially since this particular thread appears to have been started here and only taken up over there by a person who has been suspended from this site. As far as I'm concerned, anything that happens over there is irrelevant. That is my personal opinion only. Anyone here is free to post wherever they want, but it makes it difficult for you to get feedback on FF, if your opinions are not posted here.

It's good to know that I haven't disagreed with you, Kelli. Perhaps you'd like to cut and paste your, and only your, DS comments here. Then, those of us who hang out here will have the opportunity to state their opinions in an open and frank, but sensitive and civil, manner. I for one would be pleased to provide you with my honest opinion on your comments once I know what they are.

Blue

[Dalila di Capri]

Hey I respect another's opionon but I shouldn't be made to feel bad because I don't agree with it. I don't think the problem is violence in film. I have been fake killing girls for 7 years and I'm no closer to doing it for real than I was 7 years ago. I think it is living in a society that doesn't take responsibility for it's actions and always tries to blame it on some one or something else. We can thank lawyers mostly for this.

Paul

I forget the exact post but you once offered me a standing ovation for something I said.

Allow me to return the favor.

Bravo

BTW in case anyone wants to know I was stabbed in a robbery (at least that is as much as I can prove) The guy was too busy running away to tell me if he had watched any of the "Scream" movies.

Baci

[Bluestone]

Let me play devil's advocate here, Paul. You haven't killed anyone because of your movies, but the question seems to be (and I'm reading between the lines here) that others may be influenced by what they see in films. I firmly believe that I have this fetish because of what I saw in films. Now, because I have a strong moral code, it has stayed in my fantasy life, but is it not possible that a person with amoral tendencies might be influenced by what they see in films, video games, whatever, and take this influence into real life?

Blue

[kelli]

ok this was my original post at DS in response to the things already posted there:

no matter how much you want to blame the moral majority, do gooders, religious right for labeling ours and many other fetishes "porn", they haven't been able to phase the proliferation of such material.

the stuff that was porn 40 years ago is now the stuff of PG13 movies. morals have loosened to the point that video games which depicted monkeys saving girls when i was young, are now packed with car jacking, robbery, assault and murder.

say what you will and defend it all u want......but i am convinced that such material, including the snuff videos i enjoy, when in the possession of impressionable young minds, greatly contribute to the desensitivity toward sexual violence in our country.

i submit the incident that occurred in Calif. last weekend in which several young men gang raped and beat a 15 year old girl while a crowd of people stood and watched. Nobody attempted to stop the attack for over 2 hours. I can't even wrap my head around that.....how can such savagery happen and be condoned by all eye-witnesses?

i struggle with and cherish my fetish at the same time, and for consenting adults, i am ok with it. but i honestly believe that this and mainstream films like Saw and Hostel seen by children contribute to the above events. Its scary to me when people see nothing wrong with someone being brutalized. And it happens more every day.

Call me an alarmist or whatever, but unless you live in a cave, you can't deny that perversion and sexual violence, especially toward women and children, is escalating at unprecedented levels. if i am wrong, what do you blame it on?

ok now this is me live again. i have listened to all the arguments. I agree, violence has been around forever. the Bible is full of it. and as most of u know, i am very conflicted about my fetish. i have had to put it aside in my life many times because of the way i feel it embraces misogyny. and yes, i KNOW ITS ONLY FANTASY!!!. and yes i know I am arguing my case in an almost hopeless situation here. Blue made a good point. People don't get ideas to commit sexual murders from watching Spongebob Squarepants. I too was originally titillated from seeing women murdered on tv and in movies. it didn't make me want to die in real life......just to pretend to. and i am sure it doesn't make 99.9% of guys who are turned on by it, go out and kill women in real life.

but give me the right to mourn for the parents, families and friends of the women who were victims of the 0.1% who do carry thru on their fantasies. when that girl in california was raped and beaten for 2 1/2 hours in front of people who did nothing to help, she could just as easily have died that night. and would any of those people who watched felt badly? i would really like to think so......but i don't think they would. i don't think that most people are immoral, but i do think a vast number are now amoral. brutality is just another entertainment form to them. and it has nothing to do with erotic sexual fantasies.

listen, i love erotic death as much as anyone.....i was one of the original members of the online community who is into such things. but in my opinion, and only my opinion, nobody else's......what was once erotic has now devolved into humiliation, torture, and devaluation of females. when i first started participating in my fantasy, it was always about the guy killing me, sure....but it was because i had done something to deserve it. and even then, it was done in an almost loving way.....during an embrace or love making....it was romantic to me. dying at the hands of a lover done wrong.

now so many times, its innocent girls abducted, tormented, humiliated, tortured and ultimately murdered like they meant nothing to anyone.....ever. i know some guys are into all that misogynistic slaughter of women. and to each their own. but please let me indulge in my need to come to the defense of my gender on occasion. it hurts me to think i am nothing but a participant in such goings on, without uttering a peep of protest. so i do sometimes. deal with it. now i will shush.

[Bluestone]

Hi Kelli,

A very well thought out statement, which touches a lot of buttons as well as issues. Whether people agree with you or not, your opinion has great value and needs to be carefully considered, in part, for producers to test our own possible contribution to the escalation of violence toward women in our community.

Having said that, I am trying to be introspective here. I am a producer who producers fantasy videos that depict both innocent women and femme fatales being 'killed' in erotic fantasies. I cater to a group of people in this community, myself included, who absolutely love women and would never wish harm to come to them. I am good friends with Suzi, have developed a good relationship with Petra, and Meredith and I have a very close friendship. The last thing that I would want is for anything negative to happen to these lovely ladies in real life. Now, when I perceive that someone outside of our community is treating my material in a misogynistic manner, I deal with it. For example, I discovered that a real life stalker of one of my actresses was purchasing videos of her. I immediately banned this individual from my store. I know for a fact that he is not a member of our community and that he has not been influenced by my videos. He is stalking my actress because he, for reasons best known to himself, wishes to inflict harm on my actress through death threats and otherwise. I DO NOT want that individual viewing my material, because I don't want my material used by such people. If I met this guy in real life, I would ask him to step outside, and do my best to beat the crap out of him in real life. (Ooops, I guess I do have violent tendencies. Don't we all.) Guys like him are a real threat. They are the enemy, and yes, as Kelli pointed out, they do exist.

Secondly, would I stop producing if I thought my material was encouraging violence against women? Yes, I probably would. I would seriously consider going the UKSG route and only produce within the private, and not the public, domain. I just am not convinced that this is the case.

Thirdly, I have lived much longer than Kelli, and I can confirm that, as the Bible says, "Men's hearts will grow cold." I have seen quite an increase in violence over the years, coupled with an insensitivity of people. The popularity of reality shows themselves, to my mind, is a negative indicator. It means that people these days seem to prefer to see real people humiliated in public, as opposed to wanting to escape into a fantasy world and check out what Kirk and Spock are discovering on Planet Omega 46. Crowds have as early as the 60's been known to ignore a woman being stabbed in public, because they didn't want to get involved. There is also the ghoul aspect. This, however, applies to the general public, not those who frequent this site and view our videos. It would be interesting to see where our community would rate on a scale of insensitivity. I suspect that we would actually be less insensitive than the general populace, since we have exorcized our need to see these taboos in real life by watching them on video, and therefore have less of a need to see them in real life.

Once again, Kelli, I thank you for your thought-provoking comments, and encourage others to be introspective in their replies, since I don't see Kelli's comments as an attack on this community, but simply as an honest and extremely valid concern relating to our material and the escalating violence and insensitivity that seems to be rampant in our society these days.

Blue

[JohnM]

Good points, Kelli. I definitely agree as I said earlier that things people watch and see can passively influence actions.

But, since violent crime has dropped so much over the years as populations have grown, I think there can be a better argument that violent games and movies is just a part of our culture and a replacement for other adrenaline releasing activities of the past, like playing sports. (and much safer)

As you can see, violent crime has been dropping....a lot since the internet.

School Youth Violence Stats
http://youthviolence.edschool.virginia. ... stics.html

Intimate Partner Violence
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/intimate/victims.htm

Serious Violent Crime
http://ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/cv2.htm

JohnM

[Max5s]

now so many times, its innocent girls abducted, tormented, humiliated, tortured and ultimately murdered like they meant nothing to anyone.....ever.

I too am bothered by the above, particularly the humiliation and torture aspects and especially when directed at younger and younger looking victims.

[JohnM]

now so many times, its innocent girls abducted, tormented, humiliated, tortured and ultimately murdered like they meant nothing to anyone.....ever.

I too am bothered by the above, particularly the humiliation and torture aspects and especially when directed at younger and younger looking victims.

There you go. That is good. Everyone is different here and that is what is important. As long as someone here does not become preachy and self-righteous, I enjoy good discussion.

I watched a movie last night that was called Stockholm Syndrome. It was terrible. A pregnant women had her fetus extracted, pummled in front of her, then she later was burned alive in front of her husband. Later, a priest tortures a schoolgirl and rams a razor thingy up her. Needless to say, I fast-forwarded a lot. It was not sexy, and while lots and lots of nudity and perversion, did not fit into my fetish interests at all (except for boobs). This movie premiered at Cannes BTW and has received mixed, but not bad or condemning reviews. The reason is, just what Kelli suggests, I feel. We are desensitized to violence and various subject matters---in movies.

I make that distinction. At least for me, when anything happens in real life, I am just as disturbed--more so even then I was when I was younger--before all this.

While there are movies---horribly disturbing movies out there like August Undergrounds--Mordum in which a young girls body is necrod in a bathtub or in it's sequel a family--all ages are brutally murdered and sexually assaulted---I still feel that they are just movies. My feeling is so what. There is bad in real life and then there is bad in movies. They are apples and pumpkins.

Bad movies abound, there are so many it is countless. Before the internet, they were here, but less accessible. Now, they are far more accessible, yet crime is down significantly since 1991. Why. Perhaps it is the internet, keeping folks busy. Who knows. It is probably unrelated. In the 70's the amount of violent porn was off the charts by comparison. Go over to Japan, and they are the mecca for violent porn and young characters that are actually portrayed on purpose as underage.

There are lots of things in real life that disturb me, but anything in movies, as long as portrayed by adults does not phase me. If I don't like it, I will fast forward or not make the mistake of buying it in the first place. I like good horror movies, but often make the mistake of buying for the previews.....bad idea.

But, that is just me and it is only my opinion. I am not against any one elses opinion. I don't thing anyone should feel they way I do and I don't feel any reason to feel how someone else wants me to feel. It the cool thing about us all being grown ups.

And one final note to Kelli. I do not understand where you are coming from because I am not you. You have a unique and very important perspective that I completely respect. I imagine there are many things keeping me from completely understanding--gender being a big part of it. So, while I will babble about my views and such, to me, yours are just as important and should be shared. I will completely agree with you--stand by you, whenever I can. But on this issue, we have different opinions.

JohnM

[kelli]

alright, one more post by me....then i will let paul get back to his fun-filled existence

thank u all for making me realize a few things, i need you to enlighten me so i can alleviate some of my guilt. and you have. john especially, but all of you in some way.

i had an epiphany of sorts, i think. that man has basically not evolved at all from the earliest times. he is still the same bloodthirsty creature he ever was.....only now he wears old navy instead of pelts. i am convinced that if tomorrow, they brought back throwing people to lions, stadiums would be packed with eager onlookers. and by "man" i don't just mean the male of our species.....tho they are certainly less evolved....duh.

but that's not the epiphany i had. it was that i actually do now believe that violent video games, movies, throwing people to lions, etc is a surrogate for satisfying the bloodlust that is inherent in people. they can vicariously fulfill their need for bloodletting without getting their hands dirty. brilliant! it also explains the drastic decline in the crime rate. all those murders i see on the news are such hyperbole!

and now i am truly done with this topic. until it rears its ugly head in my conscience again. thanks for putting up with me. i mean no harm really. and if i really bother you all that much......just freaking kill me.

[Dalila di Capri]

HI Kelli,

In my case you don't bother me at all.

You are more than entitled to speak your mind, and especially here at this forum you will be respected for your opinions even by those who disagree.

Take my relationship with Paul KHP as an example.

We have almost polar opposite tastes in filmmaking.

His are hard rough super realistic, and concentrate on the sexual aspect of the stabbing shooting gutting (and some strangling I suspect) from the killer's point of view.
His ladies are victims: Beautiful sexy victims, but victims nevertheless.

My films concentrate on glamour, surealisitc beauty, and above all else that fact that every woman getting killed in my story lines is a sadistic bitch who deserves her demise.

His specilay is his FX amd mine is my over all ambiance.

Yet there is always respect between the two of us even though we would disagree as to how a film should be produced. He is brilliant at what he does, and I sense from how he responds to my posts that he respects what I do.

My real life stabbing was at the hands of a hit and run thief. He stole a diamond necklace and stabbed me in the belly. I was in the hospital for 15 days, and took another 6 weeks to recover.

I am the LAST person who would advocate real violence against women because I was almost killed by it.

So I am supportive of your concern. I try to make fims that do not humiliate and victimize women, but I do emphasize the sexual phallic nature of a knife going into a belly.

It is phallic. There is no getting around that fact.

Some who believe in "the law of attraction" would perhaps say that I willed that stabbing upon myself because it was a fantasy of mine before it happened.

I do not believe in the law of attraction and have my suspicions that I was set up by someone who already knew about my fantasy and wanted to "teach me a lesson".

I am sure that I was not stabbed by a necro guy.
So in my specific case I know that my stabbing was not prompted by a necro film.

I am supportive however in your concern that actresses, and women in general are not just treated like pieces of meat.

Dennis of CnB once warded off a particularly pesky stalker on my behalf. I am to this day grateful to him for that action.

On the whole this is a community that respects and supports its actresses and models.

Part of that respect will be demonstrated by how your opinions are treated.

You are always welcome to voice them.

If someone kills you it will only be in a fantasy and only because they think you are as sexy as hell.

Baci