Are we Porn?

[Bluestone]

Well, Storm9's points are well taken... so much so that they were taken by Pennpaul over to DS and copied there without permission or apology. It appears that plaguerism is alive and well at that other board. Well, hopefully they will learn something from Storm9's post... but I doubt it.

If Kelli and others are concerned that producers are merely doing whatever they think they have to do to women on screen, just to sell videos, this is indeed a valid concern. Of course, sex has been used to sell everything from cookies to corvettes, and I see nothing wrong with that; however, the degrading of women to sell products is a whole 'nother story.

Now, every producer has a choice as to whether or not they draw lines in the sand that they will not step over, and I can only speak for myself as to whether Bluestone has drawn such lines. I have. It is simply a personal choice based upon my personal preferences and I am in no way suggesting that other producers even consider adopting them, since everyone must make their own choices in a free country. These are some of my limits relevant to the issue of the degrading of women:

1. For some reason, I find it erotic to view a sexy woman dying. As to why... well that could be debated forever, but I am comfortable with fantasy female death scenes, and I will continue to film them and make them as sexy as possible;
2. I personally do not find brutal rapes sexy, especially if it is very realistically done. This is a personal choice, but I won't be producing that type of material;
3. I have no interest in filming hard core porn. If simulated sex scenes are considered soft core porn, then I will film such scenes, if they are a natural part of the storyline of a film;
4. I have no interest in brutalizing or degrading a female in film to the extent that they are no longer recognizable as a once beautiful woman. For me, the woman must always be a thing of beauty, not a disgusting corpse.
5. I respect my actresses and will not demand or force them to perform acts on screen that they are not comfortable performing. I accept customs only on the basis that the actress is comfortable with the script beforehand.

Well, those are some of my more major personal limits on the subject of degrading women in film. I don't expect other producers to agree with these limits. After all, they only apply to Bluestone Video Productions. Other producers will set their own limits... or not, but, since this issue was raised, I wanted to make it clear to all concerned that I do indeed have limits to the type of material that I will film.

Blue

[JohnM]

Thanks for that Blue. Your in Canada, right, so even if you wanted to, Porn is not an option coupled with your material....or maybe that is only in certain Providences.

Ok, here are my limits or actually it is what I do with a few things I don't scattered in.

I take every custom inquiry on a case by case basis. I don't look at things as degrading or harmful because they are just movies. I look at things from a production and sales standpoint.

So lets start. Remember, everything I list here is in terms of fantasy. There is no reason for me to address the reality of anything I shoot for the simple fact that everything I shoot, no matter how over the top, how comical, how realistic, is merely a work of fiction. What's real, can be agreed upon as terrible and really has no place creeping into make believe. We are adults and we can play too without constantly being reminded that bad things are happening around us all the time. I get the NEWS.

RAPE
I will start with this one first. I personally am not a fetishist for fantasy rape. Like most of my movies, I never watch playback once it is edited except to show a scene to a curious model, etc. It is not something I would watch for pleasure. However, like many things I shoot, I enjoy the process of making something that reaches a certain level. In most rape scenes that I have shot, they are slightly passive and low-key. A rape fetishist would probably not be into my productions. I have done one or two scenes that I really thought turned out quite intense and dramatic. My filming style aside, it is quality performances from the actors that is the key. Finding that combination for me is rare, but when I do, I take advantage of the talent of that actress. If she can play a scene a certain way, I will shoot that type of scene.

Now, I am not a rape fetishist company. Though my very first production in 2006 with Paris Kennedy contains incest and rape, both were a key part of the story. In addition, the reason I only shoot it certain ways with certain actresses is I want it to be minimum discomforting to a maximum of brutal. I never ever want a pretty, soft rape scene. While not all of them are good, they are never presented in any way but mentally and physically harmful to the victim. While I want the rape fetishist to enjoy the scene, I want the travesty of the situation to be presented for the sake of my movie. Bad things happen in my movies and rape, on some occasions is the precursor to subsequent violence and death.

There is no doubt that I make movies that have all kinds of moods. Rape will never be a laughing matter but I guess the viewer can laugh of they want, just like we laugh in-between takes. That is just the way it is.


TORTURE
Actually, I have done tortures since the Ruemorgue days, but all were pretty simple sequences. It really has been this year that I have done more, mostly for customs. The only thing I won't do is something so gory that it would make it un-sexy. Yes, to many a soaking wet girl suspended over a puddle of water with mild to medium bruising getting electrocuted, beat or whipped is sexy. You ask, what would make it un-sexy. A torch. Causing burns is not something I want to do. The makeup work would be cool to try and maybe for mainstream I would. But, this is fetish. I still want her to look hot. Just like Bluestone, while we have different interpretations on what can look sexy, I want her to still be sexy. So the torture videos are just that, sexy girls being tortured. Obviously, everything I shoot ends in death, so when I refer to a torture video, it comprises one element, long or short of a full-length movie that may include other taboo elements.

Oh, and my fetish is not torture either. I like making things look like they are happening like in one of my recent releases the girl was beat with a rusty old hammer. You could hear the metal and bone connecting with each swing. Of course, the hammer was foam. For me, it is a challenge to make things look like they are happening that are not. I enjoy that.

In addition, being grounded in reality and knowing that these are just really hot girls in makeup...I really enjoy the beauty of most women and body-types. I cast the type that sell the best, however.

YOUNG
I cast for girls from 18-40's. Most of my actresses are around 24-27. Some look pretty young. I do scenarios that take advantage of that youthful look, however their stated or implied characters age is always 18 or over. That is the way it is. But, it is a free world, and people see what they want to see.

INCEST
Don't care for it, sells good.

PREGNANT
If a model is pregnant and asks for work, I am going to help as I always do if I have the studio funds. That is how I roll. I help out all my actresses if I can when they need work if I have work for them. Only twice has this come up. I have released two out of 360+ movies with this as part of the condition of the character simply because it was the real condition of the actress. Sells amazingly well. If I were really into it, I would do way more. But, I am not. It is just something I did and if asked I would help again. Customs--maybe. No one has asked. It would probably depend if I had a model. I know of one girl, that will be ready to shoot in about 6 months from now.

Hmm, I cannot think of any other taboo thing that I do. Oh, better cover this.

PORN
I like porn.

Ok, there. So, I will not burn someone to death. I have been asked but so far have not wanted to do a skull-fucking video. I don't like anal, but will be doing one next month and will do if asked, but, ish, not really excited about it. I don't like poop. Oh, I will not do POOP. Fake obviously, but iouuu. I am sure there are other things, but mostly they are non-sellers anyhow. Oh, I am doing something with brains this month. That should be interested. I am thinking some color of jello....watch for it. :-)

Take care,
JohnM

[Bluestone]

Thanks, JohnM,

So, there you have two versions of producers' limits, both presented in a very honest and frank way, and both have merit, since, like any type of art, there should be freedom of artistic expression. I may like Dali, but others may think it's crap. Both opinions should be accepted as that person's personal preference, which does not mean that either position is necessarily right or wrong.

In answer to the 'why I don't do porn' question, John. I am in Canada, but that's not why I don't mix hard core porn with the death fetish. If I was into that, I would do it, since I firmly believe that Dr. Don's case will be overturned on appeal. In my considered opinion, the law of Canada does not differ from the law of the U.S.

Oh, you brought up some more issues that I didn't think about. Here they are (again only my personal limits):

I don't do incest. I don't do the killing of pregnant women. I don't do death scenes with underage, or apparently underage, girls. I don't include excrement in the scenes. I think that's about it

Now, I'm sure other producers have their limits too. Anyone else care to share?

Blue

[Dalila di Capri]

Paul,

I don't see where anyone is asking you to feel guilty about anything.

Did I miss something in all of this debate??

For Kelli:

Your opinion is desired.

I am a very well educated woman and a condescending pat on the head by the boys pisses me off as much as I am sure it does you.


I too stand by my work. It is erotic and I am willing to accept that fact that some people will call it porn.

I have no proof that it causes people to act violently, but I DO have proof that it has caused some to NOT act violently because I have fans who have told me so.

As for Paul's notion that this whole subject is "stupid":

If you find the subject stupid Paul then why did you contribute to the thread so much?

Quite frankly I think you jumped in because my question was in fact not stupid but rather interesting and allowed people to offer diverse opinions, which is what a form is supposed to be. It also allowed you to promote your work, which is something all of us producers do here at FF. That is and of itself is just fine.

You are a man who does not like to be insulted, and I respect that.

You however need to respect that others also don't like to be insulted.

[Dalila di Capri]

Hi Evangelene,

A strong and very wise statement of your opinion.

I think perhaps what we need to do is just decide that the word "porn" isn't a bad word at all.

(John M I hope you are reading with interest!!)

If I go out in a white micro mini sack dress with no bra and just a thong on and prance through some casino in Vegas many eyes are upon me.

Hopefullly the men are thinking "damn that woman is built"

But I am very well aware that many of the wives are thinking

"She must be a porn actress"

Or

"She's a whore"

or

That skank

And I have to say

"Oh well"

Eve, I have always loved your peek-a-boo avatar that shows your flexiblily and at the same time presents your dainty vagina in a beautiful, teasing way.

That photo for me is very artistic and inspired me to change my avatar to something a bit more erotic as well.

I am an erotic horror actress. I guess some people will call it porn, and the longer this thread goes the more comfortable I am with the idea that my work could be called porn by some people.

I am selling sex after all, even when I am wearing a sexy outfit instead of posing nude.

Thanks for yet another smart post.

baci

[Dalila di Capri]

Hi Paul,

Thanks for clearing that up.

Storm is a good man, and feels very passionately about the actresses.

He has written abut a dozen or so fantasy stories with me in them.

You know that I am mostly on your side the question of whether our material causes more violence or not.

I belive that it relieves a lot fo tension and allows basically decent men who find this material to be sexy to feel good about themselves and say

"Hey there are others out there, even women , who also enjoy this."

I recently spoke to a trial attorney who wanted to hear about my real life stabbing because he was honestly interested and concerned about what I went through. This was not a violent or dangerous man, and was sympathetic about the terrifying aspect of my experience. But, yes he does find FANTASY death to be very erotic.

I think with Storm it's just a matter of the women on this forum being treated well.

I feel that I am treated well here, which is why FF is my primary posting home.

I also get treated well at anythign on John Templar's sites, so I enjoy going there.

What I hope to communicate to Kelli is that she has the right to her opinion and will be respected for it even by those who disagree.

Baci

[Dalila di Capri]

One thing we DO have in common is that we will protect our production companies to the death.

I have nothing against being called porn, if that is what people want to call it.

But I put in excellent performances and I will not be called "skank whore, worthless, bullet fodder", etc by some idiot who has never produced a film or never paid to see one of mine.

(And I think we know who I speak of here )

Upon that we agree.

Paul when I contrast our styles mostly what I mean to say is that there is a distinctly American quality to your work and a distinctly European quality to mine.

I don't mean to make it sound as though I think you are some sort of slop swilling red neck because in fact I have the opposite opinion. I find you to be a very smart producer who makes high quality films.

As I have said before my real competitor if we are talking about stylistic choices is not you but Bluestone, and we have a very good relationship.

I don't think that Storm is an idiot. I think he is a sweetheart. I would however suggest that Storm or anyone else in our community consider the fact that we, the producers, need the fans to support our work by purchasing it, if nothing else to keep current with our development.

The Grotto films from 2004 as you know have my performances as their strong point but...

We didn't know how to do lighting, our FX were very primative...etc.

Our productions now are very smooth and slick.

We don't even presume to tread upon your FX expertise, but we do a good job at the FX we know how to do. We choose to make it part of our over all "real film" look.

I have seen the growth in your film quality story lines and actresses over the years.

People running around saying that KHP is "stab the girl in the barn snuff" have not stayed current with your abilities, just as people who say "Dalila is a hot bitch but the FX are lame" have not stayed current with our work.

And, getting back to the original topic, many will misunderstand our work. They will call it porn whether it is or not.

After posting this thread I have decided that I can live with that accusation without changing what I do in my films one bit.

Baci

[Dalila di Capri]

I respect your point about humble budgets.

I made my entire frist season in a tiny apartment!

It's not that way any more thankfully, and of course we know what we are doing technically.

As for Megan Fox:

A very beautiful woman. I think making her into a monster who eats people is a waste, but using her as a femme fatale who murders until she herself is killed is a much better use of her beauty.

Knives are sexy and phallic. If people want to call them pornographic I am not going to argue.

[Bluestone]

Hi Paul,

I feel that I must come to the defense of Storm9 here. I don't think he should be called 'misguided' and lumped in with a group of people who were suspended from this board for blatant disruption. Storm9 certainly has a right to his opinion. I've re-read his post and I see no reference to KHP in it. He is talking in generalities about producers, not singling out you or me or Dalila. Accordingly, I don't feel that name-calling is in order. You can disagree with his opinions, but let's leave it at that.

As for fiercely defending the reputation of your fine production company. When it is attacked, or your stuff is misrepresented, I agree that you should set the record straight. I've been known to defend my material against people, usually on other message boards, who make wild and unfounded generalizations against my work; however, I also accept that it may not be everyone's cup of tea. So, I believe that as producers we have to accept criticism at times. After all, that's one of the methods that has helped us to improve our craft over the years.

Now, Storm9's comments may not apply to your work, Paul, but they may be valid points with respect to the work of other producers. I personally believe that his perspective is a valid contribution to this discussion, and that would be true whether I agree with it or not.

Anyway, just my two cents worth on the issue.

Blue

[Dalila di Capri]

Hey now,

I started this thread and I think it's an interesting topic, so whatever you do Blue please ignore Paul's request (threat? challenge?) to shut it down.

Paul you are forgetting that Evangelene has also posted on this thread and I would say that a woman who has 7-8 years of sleepy film experience and now has a stable of 8 girls producing erotic horror neds to be considered.

Peter has also contributed to this thread.

So there you have it. There are more producers ansewring these questions than you are suggesting.

I repeat what I said before about the fans:

For Storm (with whom I have an off forum friendship) and any other customer I would ask all of them to at least stay current. My work may not be your favorite but at very least watch one of my more recent free samples when I offer it.

I know the same is true of Paul, and John M. I have seen their free samples posted so I know they are trying to advertise and demonstrate the progress in their work.

So snap judgements as to whether we are putting out material that causes violence against women really needs to be weighed against the actual films in question.

Paul, Blue is an adult and can take care of himself so I am not going to get in the middle of a fight between the two of you. It just doesn't seem to me however that what he was saying to you was all that harsh, and your reply to his comments seemed pretty hot tempered to me.

Just my opinion.

Baci

[Bluestone]

Yes, I can take care of myself, thank you, Dalila, and, of course, I won't be shutting down this thread. Paul is not my father either

In that list of producers, my name was conspicuously absent. I am a producer who has been contributing to this thread, but I don't go around getting offended, because someone says something that I may not agree with about producers. I stepped in not as a moderator or administrator, but just as a regular member, because I thought lumping Storm9 in with suspended members was overkill. I stand by those remarks. If they sound paternalistic, I can't help that. Paul doesn't walk on eggshells, and I won't either. If I have something to say, I'll say it, and I know that I can count on Paul, Dalila, and many others to speak their minds too.

There's no fight here, Dalila, just a statement of opinions. Paul, as you of all people should know, I don't delete other people's posts with which I don't agree. On the other hand, I will clearly state that I don't agree... once again as an individual member, not as Emperor Blue

As for disagreeing with you in public, Paul, if you don't want me to disagree with you in public, then don't make controversial posts on a public board. I don't care who posts what opinions on this public forum. Everyone has a right to their opinions. If I disagree, I will say so. It doesn't mean that I'm insulting or berating the poster. It merely means that I have a right to hold a varying opinion... nothing more and nothing less.

Now, this continues to be a very interesting set of topics, and as long as members are interested in contributing, there is absolutely no reason to shut down a discussion topic such as this one.

Just Plain Old Member Blue

[Dalila di Capri]

Yes of course, Bluestone also posted his opinion.

Sorry to neglect you Blue

I would also say that as a key webmaster, even though he is now a bit too busy to produce anymore Dennis counts as a producer and weighed in on this subject.

(we are porn in England )

In a sense because Dennis sponsored my entire "Dreams" series I would say he gets credit as that of an executive producer. He did't tell us what to do, but he paid for it.

Another little point: "Dreams" does have nudity (that well known love scene wherein I am gutted is a good example) But it also has plenty of clothed episodes.

Dennis bought both from me, each episode for the same price, so I think it is unfair to say that Dennis only buys nude clips.

He is recently re-running my "Kappa Kappa Die" film, wherein almost all the girls are wearing some sort of outfit. Only one girl is half nude, and she is in the bathroom getting ready for a date, so it makes sense with the story.

Baci

[kelli]

while storm is capable of explaining his own actions, i must take some of the blame for your irritation with his post. like dalila, storm is also a friend of mine off the forums. he is sympathetic to me and knew i was upset , so i think part of his motives were to "rescue" me.

while it was sweet of him and i appreciate it very much, i regret that he placed himself in the "line of fire" for me. he doesn't deserve the wrath he has incurred for it. i now wish this to be over with, ok? please? thanks.

[kelli]

paul. we are all good.

[tOkie]

Not to be harsh or: non-empathetic...yet here I go, just the same.


I believe, especially in this time we live in, that this is a very important topic to discuss. Being that I have been in this world for a number of years longer than most here, I have seen things transpire, that foreshadow what could happen within legislative boundaries. I know full well how the law enforcement of any country normally functions. I'm not saying that we should be in fear, I'm saying we need to be vigilant. All forms of art have detractors wanting to legislate morality in cyclical patterns. Stop and ponder how many times John Steinbeck's most famous work came under this kind of, albeit, undeserved scrutiny.

Having placed those thoughts, let me pose this:

WHY?

Are we at odds with one another here in this so-called "community". Is it the subject matter that is so distressing or: can it be that some of us are just more comfortable in the fantasy, that we presume everyone else has this same level of comfort?

For myself, it's not the fantasy that now guides my life. It is the preservation of said, so that future generations won't have to fear their fantasy desires, thinking they are alone.

All this being said...when the fantasy, for some, becomes inseparable from reality, then there is need for deep introspection. Ranting about being misunderstood and carrying on with recurring threats of abandoning this discussion, only reduces the credibility of your opinion.

We are adults, not children. As such, we must take responsibility to pay forward to those who will come after us. Bickering, angry words and wallowing in self pity is not how intelligent humans debate and discuss.



Jeffrey