Is 'Hardcore Sex' Coupled With 'Violence' Illegal???

[JohnM]

I cannot make any headway with you Paul because:

"It seems if some one disagrees with you, then they are over stepping their boundaries but if you disagree with them it's because they are completely wrong and you are right."

So, we will just continue to disagree.

If our community does end up getting shut down, all fingers will be pointing at you.

So of the 80 or so producers it will be me. I suspect I deserve that for engaging on the forum. Perhaps I should not anymore like many of my peers. This is turning into quite a hostile environment for fetish producers that don't conform with what seems to be the mass opinion of the handful that actually post on this forum.

I find that when we don't talk about anything but shoving knifes into bellies we get along fine. I produced a digital stabbing for you based on our email exchanges. There is no sexual content either. :-( It did not fit the motivations of the killer.

Once again, happy holidays.
JohnM

[Dalila di Capri]

What I find interesting about this thread is the notion that the valued 1st amendment rights of Americans could be violated because a small group of people in a courtroom decide that something is "obscene".

As I said in a previous post I get called "whore" if a show up in church with a full length dress and a veil over my head.

These are the kinds of people any DA would seek for a jury to put our business out of business.

My point is that I doubt they would make any distinction between what I do and what John M does, even though John freely admits that I don't do hard core and he does.

I still believe that total content of a film is what allows it to be accepted as "mainstream".

For example If Paul makes a crime drama such as the one he suggests: The cop partners are in love, they make love, the lady cop is badly wounded in mid sexual act by a female killer and the male cop kills her in self defense....there could even be a romantic death scene wherein the lady cop kisses the male cop goodbye...

Alll very legitimate and still well with KHP's standards.

It is my personal opinion that this is the direction the industry needs to take to have a fighting chance against those who would shut it down.

However I just heard Sarah Palin call the photos that her "would be son in law" took for Playgirl (I think) "Porn"

This is the type of poltician who is going to call Grotto Productions "snuff porn" as well as anything much more extreme.

So again my personal choice is to make sure there is something of substance in the plot to make sure it cannot be judged as "obscene" by a state or federal supreme court.

Baci

[Bluestone]

Are there any other non-producers out there who wish to express an opinion? In light of what happened in the UK with their thought police legislation, I'm sure there must be concerns... or not
For example, I won't pick on JohnM since he does contribute to these discussions and certainly has a right to his opinion, but let's say Producer X offers a video for sale that mixes hardcore porn with violence in a very graphic manner, meaning graphic sex and graphic violence. Would you, the buying public, want to buy this, avoid it like the plague, be concerned that it's even available, etc.? What do the non-producers think about all of this controversy?

Blue

[tOkie]

I live right here in the south central United States. I was born and raised in Dallas, Texas. I have lived in Oxnard, California, Asheville, N.C. and now in a tiny backwater town In Missouri.

I do believe this will affect me. I believe it is part of the reason the you seldom see average members in this community post their thoughts on these type of boards. I believe they are frightened of what they like, because it is so taboo. I know, from my own experiences, what it is like to not be able to have a conversation with someone about this subject. I know the feeling of loss, partly due to my proclivity for this fantasy.

Here is a link to the 1970's movie I was speaking of. This is most definitely a defining example of what is being talked about here. This movie, released in 1973, is what was referred to in that era as "blue".

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0124596/

I would also like to mention, before this thread turns the page, about the abuse of women in the pornographic film industry during those early days. I well remember the movie "Deep Throat" and the later controversy made public by it's star, Linda Lovelace (Linda Boreman). You might note the appearance of the same actor in both of these films.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068468/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Throa ... llegations

[tOkie]

Let me also say:


I appreciate all the opinions expressed here. I, personally, like the social intercourse that becomes of these topics. You must admit, that after a while, some discussions that take place here are more exciting than knives, guns, arrows...etcetera.

[Dr Don]

Question: What is hardcore worth to you?
nothing, take it or leave it 19 (13.4%)
a couple bucks 27 (19%)
half the cost of the movie 13 (9.2%)
reduces the chance I will buy 20 (14.1%)
increases the chance I will buy 63 (44.4%)

JohnM

John, I agree with John Matrix, and I don't think you fully understand what he is saying. I get from that he is all for hardcore sex to spice up a film in our genre, but do it tastefully, and without humiliating and degrading the actress....and without having hardcore sex portrayed as being the ultimate motive for the perp in the film to have sex with a dead corpse.

Anyway John M, all your comments and stats don't matter, and won't matter once the system is in motion to prosecute you....you won't shmooze your way out John....take it from an expert...and that expert is me!!

For those who think John Matrix has some other motive than to save this community from more CC services being pulled, and save producers from prosecution....you make me laugh.

Someone else mentioned Porn.....Porn is not erotic horror with some nudity and violence. At least not for the sake of illegality. Porn is hardcore explicit sex which leaves no doubt as to what is happening on screen.....and when that is done in a degrading and dehumanizing manner, and coupled with violence,....it becomes a concern to authorities and watchdog groups(who are responsible for thePAP loosing CC service 4 times in 4 years).

For a lot of people in this world, the only way their sorry asses would ever experience sex is with a corpse, so why encourage it?....why turn something that is a normal, fun, pleasurable human experience into a motive to commit a wicked evil selfish act for those unfortunate people that have issues, and will never experience sex with a living person?

If I can get prosecuted for making materials with only nudity and violence, despite the Supreme Court saying it takes hardcore explicit sex before a prosecution should commence, then believe me John M....you can easily be prosecuted, and a jury will have no sympathy for you when your films are shown in the courtroom and the prosecutors experts give their prejudicial commentary scene by gruesome scene.

In my opinion, the films John Matrix is refering to are shabby works anyway. The sex is thrown in because the video is garbage without it, and the producers know it. It's not garbage because of the actors either. The actors performance usually corresponds to the quality of the directing they recieve.

[Dr Don]

Let me begin by stating that I understand the whole "my name is on the line" concept of being a producer. I understand that there are those self righteous types that would spend everyone's tax dollars to fight this great "crime". What I am truly missing here, is the differentiation between this form of entertainment, being that *is* all it really is, and the similar type made by major movie moguls.

I have seen movies with more female degradation and humiliation, than anything that is presented in this arena. Of course, there are probably some that I am not aware of, that are the exception to the rule. I have seen so many horror (slasher) films from all the decades past, continuing through today, that expound on female degradation. I have seen movies from the early seventies, that, when viewed in the light of this discussion, make me wonder why they were not banned or outlawed then.

I just don't understand where or even why, someone would draw the line.

I've seen plenty of the bigger budget movies too. I spent several years going through video stores, watching TV movies, shopping online for evidence to show in my defense, but I haven't seen anything as degrading and dehumanizing as some of the clips being produced and sold on nicheclips right now. I don't know where you shop or get your bigger budget movies from. The worst for hardcore sex and violence that I have scene is still Bais Moi, and Remstar Corp. in Montreal Canada is the North American distributor for it....and they were not prosecuted. However, as shocking as Bais Moi was and still is.....it's nothing compared to what's going on in this genre.

Like I said, in my opinion the hardcore sex is thrown into these films because without it no one would by the video, because it's a piece of shit. The people that buy those videos are uncultured, unsofisticated, suckers that can't tell a good video from raw sewage.

Would I make a movie with hardcore sex? Definately. But it would be a feature length film and the sex would be shown as a normal human activity, not as a bastardized degenerate, dehumanizing, degrading, moronic act of evil. I would use the sex scenes to get the viewer more intimately acquainted with the characters in the film, and the death scenes would come later under different circumstances.

[Dr Don]

I never named anyone's work in particular, so go make yourself useful and lick your balls somewhere pup.

Yeah, well let me go on record now as saying I do not, repeat, do NOT think JohnM's work is trash or garbage or any of those other words used to describe it just now and I believe that talk to be degrading as well. I just happen to think it's a bad idea enlight of things. I know JohnM could sale just as well without doing it so I wish he just would. I personally can not wait to see his new stab video he's promised!

[Dr Don]

Nope, just giving John M some friendly advice. Me and John M go back to before you stained the Internet with your mouth. Man I would love to go a few rounds with you bud. Of all the people in this community, you top the list of people that need the beating your ole man never gave you.

You sound just like some one else who used to post on here. If you are not referring to JohnM's work, then who's are you referring too? You were all over JohnM in your first post so it would seem that is who you are referring to in the second unless you clarify.

[Dr Don]

Are you going to answer the question or keep dodging it? Should I also shut my pie hole? Am I also puck ass? And of what exactly are you a doctor of?

Answers:
Question 1 part 1: No
Question 1 part 2: Yes (keep dodging it)
Question 2: Yes
Question 3: Yes
Question 4: None of your business.

[GraveDancer]

I can only speak as a consumer and I can only speak for myself. But Bluestone asked for a consumer's opinion, so here it goes:

I have absolutely no respect for anyone who wants to tell me what I have to like or what I can live without and what not. Or anyone who wants to define what's tasteful and what's not. That's the mindset of the prosecutors and it's very interesting to see how readily the prosecuted adopt it.

I am a porn fan. The reason why I started to watch porn? Well, there was a chance that one in a hundred porn movies had a scene which linked hardcore sex and death. And for that chance, I watched those hundred movies. Eros and Thanatos is the core of my fetish. I'm a necrophiliac, for heaven's sake - I fantasize about having sex with a dead girl. I also enjoy watching her die, but that's just the foreplay. Am I really worse than those who fantasize about mercilessly stabbing her, gutting her, bathing in her blood; using their knifes as a substitute for their dicks? Brutally killing them is fine, but God forbid that there's some sex involved? Sorry, I can't follow that logic.

Today I'm following the fantasy death community for exactly a decade. Hardcore sex has been a part of it for a very long time, namely NV, INS and NP. It was a great day when quality producers like PT and especially PKF came onboard. Since then, I don't buy anything from any producer who doesn't mix hardcore sex and fantasy death anymore. Simply because it was this combination I was looking for anyway, so why should I take a step back?

Unfortunately, there's a tendency to up fantasy physical torture and rape, two things I can live without very well. Brutally fucking a corpse? Great! Brutally raping a living woman? Blegh! Stabbing her once to kill her? What a thrill! Stabbing her 10 times, the first 9 to see her suffering? Mindnumbingly boring! But that's just my personal taste and I will never say that one of those things is better than the other. And I can't see that any of this is more or less misogynistic. Actually, I can't see any moral high ground when it comes to the fantasy death fetish. We're at the bottom of the pit simply by the only thing we* all have in common: we enjoy watching a beautiful woman getting killed (*we, the consumers; I promised to only speak for myself, but this is the exception because it's such an obvious fact). And from the bottom of the pit, you can't look down on anyone without making a fool of yourself.

I respect producers who don't do harcore scenes if it's a personal choice, a matter of taste. I understand those who are simply scared. But I have no respect whatsoever for those who preach self-censorship or those who come with a holier-than-thou attitude. What other producers do is none of your business. If you think they put you at risk (which would be funny, since, as I've said, hardcore death fetish producers have been around for a very long time and everyone who started after 2001 should have known about this risk) and you're to scared to continue, than don't let the door hit you when you close your shop. The market is grossly oversaturated anyway and there are much too many producers who got too comfortable in their cozy little niches and haven't pushed envelopes, broken taboos or crossed boundaries for a very long time (if ever). If they get replaced by fresh talent, then that can only be a good thing for me... as a consumer.

Remember, nothing worth doing is without risk.

End of rant, have a Merry Christmas.

[tOkie]

Excellent post, Grave Dancer

[Dr Don]

Grave Dancer:

The concern is not just prosecution. The concern is also, for example, for sites like thePAP site losing their CC service 4 times in the last 4 years because of complaints from watchdog groups. The concern is for sites using CC service to prefund accounts as a way of getting around the policies of the CC companies. So Prosecutions are one thing, and CC service is another. The treatment of our beloved female actors is another issue too....and I can't overstate that concern.

I am for freedom of expression as much as anyone. But freedom doesn't mean people can do whatever they want without regard to those who are directly and sometimes indirectly harmed by that expression. For example: we are not free to slander and defame others without being subjected to possible civil prosecutions. We are not fee to walk down the street and mug, murder, and steal. The laws are there so that if everyone obeys them we can all live in harmony, peace and happiness and without fear.

Real freedom is being free to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. As soon as one person violates that freedom, then none of us are truly free.

One last point....after reading about what you describe as your fantasies etc.....I advise you to seek help man....seriously......I think you are suffering from an obsession that could lead to serious problems. There is a lot more to life....sheesh. Not trying to offend you here...but I have been around this community since 1997, and I was a major contributor of videos at one point in time. I've seen and heard a lot of people talking about fantasies....and what you describe, and how you describe it is setting off my alarm bells. I actually hope I am wrong about your condition...time will tell.

[tOkie]

One last point....after reading about what you describe as your fantasies etc.....I advise you to seek help man....seriously......I think you are suffering from an obsession that could lead to serious problems. There is a lot more to life....sheesh. Not trying to offend you here...but I have been around this community since 1997, and I was a major contributor of videos at one point in time. I've seen and heard a lot of people talking about fantasies....and what you describe, and how you describe it is setting off my alarm bells. I actually hope I am wrong about your condition...time will tell.

wOw!


You certainly have a real judgmental streak going on in you.

Who do you think you are, making such statements?

[Dr Don]

wOw!

You certainly have a real judgmental streak going on in you.

Who do you think you are, making such statements?

Is that all you got out of what I said?
Who's judging who?

Oh! Who do I think I am...I'm DrDon...you gotta problem with that?