Is 'Hardcore Sex' Coupled With 'Violence' Illegal???

[Dr Don]

As far as I can see from this, that is probably what pushed this into the court system. At that point, they would feel a serious need to shut you down because you would be considered a danger to children. Hence the investigation into your own children.

KHP: You say "As far as I can see" and "Probably" which means you know you are speculating, and it is wreckless and damaging to me for you to express it that way. You are spinning your own version to damage my character in the minds of other people on a public forum. You are digging yourself into a civil action that you will not be able to defend successfully. Please stop this nonesense.

I have to believe that local police do believe that happened.

Again, you start by saying you have to believe, yet no one is twisting your arm to make you have to belive your speculations. In reality you have to believe nothing happened because they investigated and found those reports to be not credible. FACS didn't even investigate those complaints because they told the police it was not good enough information for them to intevene. The allegations FACS did investigate came after I was charged, and those allegations were fabricated by the police. The letter posted states: FACS completed their investigation and the allegations are inverified....we are closing your file. That means end of story Paul. So please stop with your speculations and malicious accusations.

You purposely left that portion out in all these years because you knew you would not get the sympathy from people for that.

Not true, this was all commented on at the free site in 2000 and 2001 as well as my messageboards (public and members). This issue became nothing and wasn't a part of the prosecution, so I put it behind me, which is what you should do. All my members back then were informed about it. I have the webpages all backed up on CD's. If you want, I can send copies of the back up CD's to you in snail mail.

Remember, you came to the community 2 years later, according to your own words, then in 2008 you made comments about my case and you put it in the wrong perspective...making me to appear to have been involved in CP and also led people to belive corrupting minors was the reason I was prosecuted. You did that with intent to damage my reputation Paul. You did not do it because you wanted to be my buddy. And you just did it again in this post of yours.

Now I have given you plenty of opportunity to leave this issue alone. Please drop it. Becuase each time you post about this you are attacking my character and credibility with speculations based on an incomplete and fragmented knowledge of my case. You are not an expert on my case, so please don't comment on it like you are an expert.

So you made this into something it never was. If anything complicated this it was your lies and ommision of the facts in the case. You simply jumped to what they settled in on charging you with which was producing obscene material. How you got there, to you was not important. The fact is it is important. I would tell any one who decides to show their stuff to minors or even let them do editing would most likely face prosecution on one leave or another. Don't go blaming the entire legal system for your poor lack of good judgement.

I did not make this into anything. It's all on the court record.

You turned it into something it never was Paul.
You complicated it with your lies like you are doing now.
You jumped to conclusions as to why I was charged.
How I got there is not the way you are presenting it.
I would tell anyone not to show adult materials to minors because we have "corrupting the morals of a minor" laws. Don't go telling people that I blame the entire legal system. It was started by Gobeil who is a religious fanatic and who's personal religious ideas of sex is a female exposing her breats. So tits and ass coupled with violence = obscene in his mind. He started it. Stop blaming me.

If there are credible accusations as was reported on you, I can see how they would see that about you too. Police might say, "we don't believe his work is illegal but he's showing it to minors so something needs to be done." That is not a religious nut who would say that, it would be a cop who cares about his job. Until you show actual proof and not just your word as to whether or not these allegations held up, I am forced to believe they did hold up and is why they came gunning for you.

Paul, you said "IF" there are credible accusations. "If" and "Probably" are your thoughts and introduce your damaging specualtaions. They were not credible accusations. You do not know one way or the other what's behind those allegations, or why they were not pursued legally. They were investigated early on in September and went no where. They had nothing to do with the charges.

I don't think quoting what Den tells you in private conversation is a good idea Paul, especially when you turn it into more speculation for the purpose of dragging this on and on in an attempt to damage my character further.

I can't help but notice your story keeps changing just a little bit each time I write something. Can't wait to hear the new changes to help fit the circumstance.
Paul

My story has never changed. I'm just adding more details in order to set the record straight because you are trying to re-write history for the purpose of assissinating my character.

Thanks buddy ole pal. I would rather you come at me with name calling than see you spread lies like this. Name calling is just sticks and stones stuff, but what you have consistantly done on this forum is attempt to damage my character by making disparaging remarks and speculations designed to damage my reputation.
Way to go KhP-Paul

[Dalila di Capri]

Thank you Blue for posting John Matrix's comments at DS.

Paul I am still a bit confused. I don't see any personal attacks upon you in the comments that Blue posted.

I see instead attacks upon "Gobeil". He is the cop who would find a Roman statue of Venus to be "porn", etc.

No one in this industry would do well if a crusader cop decided to make a specific producer his pet project.

Don could have been making rabbit breeding vidoes and this fellow would have claimed that Don was practicing beastiality.

So are you saying that Don is lying about the case insofar as the use of an under age assistant? I am not seeing exactly where your claim that Don is not being truthful comes from.

If Don did use an assistant under the age of 18 there would need to be proof that he exposed this assistant to material that is illegal to show to a minor. That does not mean erotic horror BTW.
Let's just say the young man was watch a Eurosleaze film made in the 1970's, let's a say a Dario Argento film. He sees a woman killed in an erotic fashion (which happens in every Argento film.) He has NOT been exposed to pornography. He has seen a muder depicted on film. That is all.

Now I would personally avoid the entire issue by never hiring soemone under 18 in the first place.

If Don did work with someone under 18 clearly this would not be the best idea in the world, but it still is neither CP or exposing the child to porn, unless there was hard core porn mixed in with the erotic horror that the young fellow saw.

We all agree (hopefully you as well) that the jury in Don's case was selected to be close minded.

So I aks you Paul: Where is the evidence that Don exposed this young person to porn?

Also for Blue: You mention that John Matrix was saying "shut the f### up" etc. Where are those insults? If he was yelling these things at Paul he should not be.

[tOkie]

I'll post what was said at DS, though I don't care for the language.

All of these posts are in the order of which they were posted there.






Bloke wrote:

I'd like to hear some real insight from those that are not producers. I'd like to know what the average video buyer thinks of all this, how will it change what they buy, if at all.

I'd also like to know why now? Is there something that is currently pressing the issue? Are there politico's that are looking to advance their careers by taking on nameless entities?

I just don't see any prosecutor seeking to make a name, without going after the more newsworthy/deep pocketed "hollywood" type producers.

Enlighten me, if you will.




MKKB wrote:

I am a little confused, if you truly feared the potential consequences resulting from a company that makes a profit off of "n*cro sex" why does "jafaentertainment.com" host a link for Horror Variety Theater store?
It seems a bit hypocritical. A quick check shows Horror Variety offering "necrosex" from at least 7/08.





Fernwalker wrote:

As a consumer of porn and DS videos I do take the law into account when considering what I buy and where I buy it from.

I'm based in the UK and have a professional interest in the laws here. This has resulted in me having to review all the videos I've got and get rid of any that I think could be illegal in the UK. Those videos will be sadly missed.

I won't go into the legality of the types of DS/Hardcore mentioned here as I only have experience of the UK legal system, but there is probably a factor that hasn't been mentioned yet.

When "illegal" content is found, the police are able to find out who else has had a financial relationship with the provider. Usually by obtaining the credit card records.

In the UK this has resulted in people being being publicly arrested for buying material from sites that also host illegal content.

It turned out that some of those arrested didn't actually have any of the illegal content when their computers were taken away and searched, but the damage had already been done.

For that reason I not only don't buy any more videos that I think could be illegal in my jurisdiction (UK), but I avoid dealings with any company that does.

I don't want to lose my job and family because I bought videos off a producer who also sells "illegal" porn.

My last point, and the most obvious one. You MUST know what is legal or illegal in your jurisdiction. If you wait until the police come knocking to find out it will be too late.

Fern





John Matrix (is this really you, Don?) wrote:

fernwalker wrote:

My last point, and the most obvious one. You MUST know what is legal or illegal in your jurisdiction. If you wait until the police come knocking to find out it will be too late.

Fern


I didn't want to quote your entire post but did want to leave the last line for reference.

I appreciate your common sense approach and all your concerns. You made the types of valid points I was hoping for in a response from people.
Bravo for you. confused clapping

All the questions asked by others such as ....why now?.... and .....why does jafaentertainment link to PMS nicheclips? are irrelevant questions.

I suggest you negative finger pointing thread killer ass picks go bother someone else rather than turn my friendly warning into a sh*t storm you wish you never started with me. boo

BTW: I have linked to PMS Productions on thePAP site for a year and a half from jafaentertainment.com, I recently posted links to the PMS nicheclips store for those video previewed on jafaentertainment.com....and none of those videos have hardcore sex in them.....AND if Pennpaul has anything that is considered hardcore sex in it at nicheclips store....it's fricken news to me.





Mr X wrote:

You're refuted by your own examples, John. Dr. Don as I understand it featured no explicit sexual acts in his work and was nailed anyway. Max Hardcore, your other example, featured no play-acted murder in his movies, only wierd sex acts. Despite the lack of this combination you seem to think is so uniquely dangerous he sits in jail today. Why? Because if the Powers That Be find what you do to be unacceptable, and what you do happens to be perfectly legal, the law will bend and twist and expand until it becomes something that can shut you down. This is particularly easy in the United States as the legal watermark for obscenity is notoriously vague.

With this in mind, all you can do is work ethically and within the law and hope you don't someday become the victim of somebody's election year whim. Trying to kiss up to the Powers That Be is a pointless endeavor.





John Matrix wrote:

Mr. X wrote:
You're refuted by your own examples, John. Dr. Don as I understand it featured no explicit sexual acts in his work and was nailed anyway. Max Hardcore, your other example, featured no play-acted murder in his movies, only weird sex acts. Despite the lack of this combination you seem to think is so uniquely dangerous he sits in jail today.


you missed my point. If Dr. Don can be prosecuted for 9 years while having made nothing with explicit sex coupled with violence, then my point is, others can be prosecuted much more easily for making the crap I referred to......ahhhhh....now do you see?

And you are wrong about Max Hardcore. His videos were hardcore sex with some violent, degrading and dehumanizing acts.....the point there was he had money, lawyers, and knew all the arguments about free speech etc.....and it got him no where....likewise....it's not going to get anyone else off the hook when the hammer falls.[/quote]

Mr. X wrote:

Why? Because if the Powers That Be find what you do to be unacceptable, and what you do happens to be perfectly legal, the law will bend and twist and expand until it becomes something that can shut you down. This is particularly easy in the United States as the legal watermark for obscenity is notoriously vague.

With this in mind, all you can do is work ethically and within the law and hope you don't someday become the victim of somebody's election year whim. Trying to kiss up to the Powers That Be is a pointless endeavor.


That's my point exactly....thankyou....It appeared to me you weren't getting it, then you went on to contradict yourself by agreeing with me. Whatever, that's cool. Nice to see you get the major thrust of my message and that you are not just out to frick with me like you have done in the past.
confused

PS: where did the comment about kissing up to the powers that be come from?

You know...why can't people like you just stick with the facts concerning what is stated instead of jumping all over the fricken place with accusations, assumtions, and speculations.

Frick I hate it when people do that. Stick to the facts Jack.









Mr X wrote:

None of what I said was a contradiction.

As far as I know Max Hardcore movies feature no fake death, which would make my statement for the purposes of the discussion correct. What you interpret to fall under the heading of 'wierd sex acts' is maybe a topic for another time. The point is no play-acted murder is involved, and the combination of make-believe murder and sex is what you claim to be so dangerous.

If your point was that all producers can do to avoid 'the hammer' is work within the law, then why are you objecting to things that are already legal?

My comment regarding 'kissing up' stems from the fact that the producers you're criticising are all already working within the law, but you'd prefer they tone down their work anyway to cater to the whim of politicians and avoid reprisal. And lets face it, align with your personal taste. Several times you've stated how little you personally care for these elements, which isn't relevant to any part of your argument.

I have never said anything solely to bug you, it is simply a really amusing fringe benefit.










John M wrote:

FYI--Max Hardcore got nailed by forcing girls to drink real pee. By those standards, I guess they should have got after John Waters for having Divine each a fresh turd right after the dog sh*t it out.

I guess my point is---who the f**k knows what they won't like. We can all just roll it up and head in side, or choose to live a little.

JohnM







John Matrix wrote:

John M: We can also choose to abide by what is written in the law as best we can.....without deliberately stepping over the line, that way, if prosecuted and convicted, we have grounds for appeal....like DrDon for instance. Otherwise you are sheet out of luck.

If a big tube site like nicheclips looses the ability to fund accounts with credit cards...you can bet I will say I told you so. Because the only way it will happen is if people complain, and they won't complain if it's not over the line.






Now then, John Matrix has already, as shown above, made some veiled threats to a few other members. This is where he really goes off the deep end, when John Matrix wrote:

Mr. X wrote:
None of what I said was a contradiction.

The point is no play-acted murder is involved, and the combination of make-believe murder and sex is what you claim to be so dangerous.


I never made that claim. I meant to tell you to stop assuming and imagining things and stick with exactly what I said....and don't entertain anything else. I know it's difficult....but keep asking yourself what is being said, and keep telling yourself not to jump to conclusions and you and I will get along fine, other wise go f_ck yourself.
Wanna buy a vowel.....here's one...u.

Mr. X wrote:

If your point was that all producers can do to avoid 'the hammer' is work within the law, then why are you objecting to things that are already legal?


If you don't get my point and you have to ask about it, then what are you doing here. Go find a kids forum to play at instead of agrivating senior members of this community.


Mr. X wrote:

My comment regarding 'kissing up' stems from the fact that the producers you're criticising are all already working within the law, but you'd prefer they tone down their work anyway to cater to the whim of politicians and avoid reprisal. And lets face it, align with your personal taste. Several times you've stated how little you personally care for these elements, which isn't relevant to any part of your argument.


Really, and what law is that. Den from CNB has posted the law many times, and sounded the warnings....so don't tell me that I am criticising people aready working within the law.

Mr. X wrote:

I have never said anything solely to bug you, it is simply a really amusing fringe benefit.


It's your ignorance, your jumping to conclusions, your assumptions, your inability to comprehend simple ideas, and your ignorant posts that I find annoying. If you take pleasure in being an irritant then go f_ck yourself a$$hole.






Mr X wrote:

John wrote:
If you want hardcore scenes in your videos...go right ahead....hardcore sex is not illegal.....but do it separate from the death scene, otherwise, sooner or later, a prosecutor will have some cops knocking on your door...and I doubt anyone of you want that, or can afford it.


This is you, in plain English, on this very page, claiming that it is the combination of sex scenes and death scenes that is dangerous.







John Matrix wrote:

Ya, so what? What's your point? Go read the obscenity laws for Canada and the USA...they are similar, except Canada's law is more clear and less vague than the USA. When you read it, shut up afterwards so you don't embarass yourself further.

Everytime I see your name pop up on the board I know there is going to be some smart ass remark behind it. You haven't let me down yet.

Welcome to the Mr. X attacks John Matrix every post show folks....starring that self appointed critic of John Matrix ...the one and only a$$hole himself....Mr.X.

GFYS Mr. X.






Mr X wrote:

Relax. Loosen up. Part or most of what I am doing is trying to get you to take yourself less seriously.

Merry Christmas.

[tOkie]

Even though the quoted parts look as if I was posting "so and so wrote"...

I made huge spaces between each post, so that the quotes from others within each post is evident.



The entire thread over at DS is open for anyone to look at, even without being a member.

[Dr Don]

What exactly was your point in cherry picking quotes from DS?

I didn't see Pennpaul's quote in which he debunked the reckless commentator who accused John Matrix of linking to hardcore and falsely accusing PMS of making hardcore.

It's wreckless comments like that which really get people who are intelligent and in the know upset.

Something else regarding the use of expletives. Are we in church here? Are we in a courtroom? Are we in a fricken nursery school here? Is there freedom of expression here or not. Freedom of expression is for protecting offensive speech.

But freedom of expression is not a licence to character assassinate another person on a public board whether done maliciously or not.

I like the John Matrix persona, and I like Blue's new adaptive John Matrix style.

[Dalila di Capri]

Hi tOkie,

Thanks for posting this.

Who is "Mr X?" (I guess that is a dumb question because he would not call himsel Mr X if he wanted Dalila to know who he was )

Nevertheless what I see is that the argument dissolves into both people swearing.

I am still not seeing that anyone is horribly insulting Paul...unless we are talking about PennPaul.

Penn is charged with making hard core necro porn, which I believe to be untrue.

Debbie is a business associate of Penn's, not his girlfriend or anything of the kind. Their relationship is strictly platonic and any "sex" going on betweent he two of them is simulated.

I did the same kinds of things with Penn myself as it was what his script demanded.

In my opinion I stuck to my standard of "Rated R sex only."

Now if someone can point out the "hard core" films Penn has made and prove me wrong I will accept this.

As for Paul of KHP: I am still not seeing from the above dialogue where HE was attacked and insulted by John Matirx.

Am I still missing something???

[Dr Don]

Now, having said all of that, I must address Paul's point, which is simply that he has been consistent in stating that any allegations about minors, that were referred to by him, were in fact made. That's it! He's simply saying that he never maliciously tried to harm Don by fabricating allegations with intent to harm Don's reputation and damage his case.
Blue

Actually Blue, it is quite apperent that KHP is attempting to damage my character, my credibility, and my reputation. He is mixing a little bit of truth along with his reckless speculations and lies. It's called defamation with malice Blue.

But once again, I am willing to forgive and move on.

[tOkie]

What exactly was your point in cherry picking quotes from DS?

I didn't see Pennpaul's quote in which he debunked the reckless commentator who accused John Matrix of linking to hardcore and falsely accusing PMS of making hardcore.

It's wreckless comments like that which really get people who are intelligent and in the know upset.

Something else regarding the use of expletives. Are we in church here? Are we in a courtroom? Are we in a fricken nursery school here? Is there freedom of expression here or not. Freedom of expression is for protecting offensive speech.

But freedom of expression is not a licence to character assassinate another person on a public board whether done maliciously or not.

I like the John Matrix persona, and I like Blue's new adaptive John Matrix style.

Cherry pick my very next post, where I put, for everyone to see, that "The entire thread over at DS is open for anyone to look at, even without being a member."


You can pick all you want. You can make this into something it isn't all you want.

You can ask for donations for your legal fees all you want. You can skip over things and only answer the questions that put you in the best light all you want.

You can say most anything here that you want.





I am not privy to anything that came before I joined here a few months ago. I am not here to say what is truth and what is fiction.

I am here to say that this discussion has turned, just as it did on DS board, into ridiculous uses of profanity and veiled threats against other members.

I do not care for that, by any means. You represent yourself as a producer. As such, you and all producers, have a responsibility to show a better attitude toward the people that read these threads. They are, after all is said and done, the ones who buy the products.

Do you not care that persons that are stating your case for you, have not the common decency to carry on a conversation without resorting to threats? I care. I'm sure there are many here that care, same as I do.

Go ahead, say all you want. Keep in mind that you may just be cutting off your nose, to spite your face, in the eyes of the consumers.

[Dr Don]

tOkie: 90% of what you just said was really not needed. All you needed to say was that you see the thread as you stated above.

However, if that is all you see then I suggest you go back to page 6 and read from there. I made an effort to change my tune.

I am not a producer and have not been for 8 or 9 years. The standard you ascribe to producers is your own. Producers are as free as anyone else around here. However, you are correct that producers have an interest in maintaining good conduct and treating their prospective customers with respect.

I said it before, and I will say it again. It's always easy for people to pop onto the scene and criticize others during a feud they no nothing about and when they are not the ones being defamed.

If all you see from all thse exchanges is what you said above, then I ask you to please take a deep breath, turn on your objectiveness, turn off your bias, turn off your personal prejudices, step back and read all of it again....I mean this site....not DS.

I would really appreciate it if you would.

Thanks.

[Peter]

...You and all producers, have a responsibility to show a better attitude toward the people that read these threads...

I would like to point out tOkie that Dr. Don has been quite consistent over the last couple of days in trying to defuse this flame war:

I am willing to forgive and move on.

I think that rather than attack Dr. Don for having engaged in flames in the past (it being utterly irrelevant who started them or even who is right), we should acknowledge that he is making the gesture and holding out the olive branch.

And as much as I like and respect Paul and his work, I have to say that over the last couple of days, it has been Paul that has been utterly unwilling to drop it.

Please Paul, for the sake of this community, please just from now on, ignore Dr. Don. Ignore everything that has to do with him. Ignore anything anyone says about him, or even you in the same context. Just ignore it. You will look far better to the rest of the community if you just back away from it all. Right now both Dr. Don AND 'You' are seen as trouble, because if this incessant bickering.

Please just stop it. Just drop it. Nobody cares about the details, nobody! Nobody cares if you are right or wrong. All we care about is this flame war ripping the guts out of the harmony in our community. And it is YOU right now who are doing that ripping. Just stop.

[Dalila di Capri]

tOkie raises a very interesting point:

There is no business without the loyal customer.

I separate customer from "fan". I have many fans who know my work only from free material that was authorized, or from watching portions of my work on file sharing pages that were put up without my authorization.

A customer is a person who buys my films when I make them available, and makes his or her appreciation for my work known by continuing to purchase my films.

There is no Grotto Productions without that person.

This ridiculousness has gone on long enough.

It is starting to come off as though two FX specialists can't stand each other just because they are both FX specialists.

If I were to wage such a public war with Petra Or Suzi or Debbie D you would all call me a bitch for doing so. If one of these other actresses were to participate in such a war you would all say:

"Oh typical cat fight. Look at these bitches go at it."

But do you ever see such a thing happen?

I have had minor disagreements with female posters, and within the first exchange or two already male posters are ready to scream "cat fight". Yet the misunderstanding is usually resolved within a few posts and no big flame war ever takes place.

This situation was resolved to the point wherein Paul was offering to contribute to Don's legal defense. Then what? Back to a war that is obvioulsly unappealing to customers.

To me at this point it does not mater who is at fault, or who started this latest confrontation.

Once it gets to the point that it is turning off customers it has gone way too far and is time for all parties to put it to rest.

Now allow me to make this clear: I have great sympathy for Don because he has lived through the nightmare that the rest of us fear. That does NOT mean that I want to see him attack Paul, but I understand why Don and his most loyal supporters are on edge, and highly sensitive.

I think Paul is an extremely talented FX oriented producer. But he needs to ask himself the following:
If the shoe were on the other foot and it had been KHP that had been shut down, and from his perspective Don was accusing him of lying about the use of a minor in HIS business, would he just stay silent and take it?

We know the answer to that. Paul would NOT take it.

I am asking both of you gentlemen to put this aside.

To me whoever is willing to do so is a real man. Whoever is content to keep whining like a child is not.

Let's see what happens.

[Dr Don]

Peter, I appreciate your comments. But actually, I am not bickering with Paul.

I'm only trying to set the record straight without attacking anyone.

These accusations, conclusions, half truths are like little fires that burn into people's minds.

If they go unchecked, people will only remember the false claims, not the real story.

As I stated several times, unless people are the ones being defamed, they will not see the seriousness of these false accusations, assumptions, conclusions, hearsay, gossip, and half truths.

[Bluestone]

I agree with Peter and Dalila. Any further discussion of this aspect of Don's case is counter-productive, and is also now boring me to death. We are not idiots on this board. Everyone can read this thread and understand it, and take away from it what they will. There is no longer any need to belabour the point further.

Now, let's get back to the original topic. Is John Matrix calling wolf with his original post? Is there really a danger of being painted with the same brush as those who produce hardcore violent porn? If I am not producing it, won't the authorities try to make an example out of someone who is? Why pick a borderline case like mine, if someone else is more extreme? It doesn't make sense. So, should this community be concerned, or just that sector of this community?

Blue

[Dr Don]

Why pick a borderline case like mine, if someone else is more extreme? It doesn't make sense. So, should this community be concerned, or just that sector of this community?
Blue

I have argued the same thing as you stated above since October 13, 2000. It doesn't make sense, but that did not stop the authorities from pursuing me anyway.

[Bluestone]

So, who else did they have to pursue at that time? Not too many producers doing your type of work in Ontario in 2000, were there?

Blue