Pussy Shootings!!! Is there really a demand!

[Bluestone]

Being part of an organization that was nearly destroyed by what happened in the UK, I see a good reason to be cautious. You have at least one producer in Canada who suffered even more. History provides valuable lessons. Personally, I have a huge distaste for censorship in most cases, but I'd hate to see the community go down the drain because producers elect to "push the boundries" in ways that are going to portray us in an even more negative light. And if Liz is correct (and I think she is), why do we need to produce material that is going to drive away what few women participants we have?

I understand your position Max as well as that of LadyAsh. AF/AD was bushwacked by a reprehensible former employee who I'd love to meet in a dark alley and give him the equivalent of a pussy shot to the balls! The Canadian producer was charged under obscenity laws that are similar to those that presently exist throughout the U.S. Accordingly, I don't think the fear factor is totally relevant here. Our community is not specifically under attack in North America, and there is no indication that this situation will change as a result of a video such as "Widowmaker". As for the porn-necro-death-fetish material, I do agree that it may attract the wrong type of attention, but I don't produce such material, so it's not my place to defend or attack its effect on pushing the boundaries too far, and thereby putting our community at risk.

Blue

[Max5s]

Actually I disagree. The community has been under attack for a couple years now, but the attack has been (to borrow a military term) asymmetric. VISA and MC put pressure on e-billers to limit our sales, and no producers can argue that this hasn't hurt their businesses. Some community members take our material and post it where anyone can download it for free and some of our members are more than willing to use pirated material rather than pay for it.

The more direct "Jane Longhurst" style of attack has not been a problem in the US yet, but 20th century History is full of mass gravesites for people that believed that "it's not happening here so I don't need to worry".

The case of "The Widowmaker" would not be so noticable if it wasn't billed repeatedly as a 'pussy shooting". If I were to engage in a campaign against the community, I wouldn't hold up that production as an example of "how devient" were are because of its content, but rather because of the words used to describe it. You are correct in stating there are many others much more explicit.

I'm trying to provoke thought and discussion about the long-term health of the community. What will those who seek to destroy the community point to as the reasons for tearing us down? Where should we draw the boundries for what is acceptable? My line in the sand is one place. Yours another. Chris B. somewhere else. But where do we agree to say "this goes too far"? If the industry comes crashing down, I'll be disappointed, you will lose an investment and Chris will be looking for a new way to earn his livelihood. Personally, I'd like to see you and Chris (and others) making videos for a long time to come.

[Bluestone]

Well, Max, my line in the sand is to not include pornography (meaning sexual genitals in play) in my videos, but I can't dictate that others accept a similar line in the sand, because I know that JohnM and ChrisB and Psychothrillers, amongst others, feel that their business requires this aspect. When it comes right down to it though, we all go down together no matter how we limit the content of our productions. As long as some producer is out there pushing the limits well beyond what I do in my productions, we are all at risk. "Widowmaker" has been announced and promoted as a pussy shooting, and it will be out there on the boards for a while, then it will be last week's news. Whereas, other producers will be featuring explicit rape and necro sex in their videos each and every week. When the axe falls, will it only fall on this explicit content. I doubt it. I remember when comic books were being burned and blamed by Dr. Wertham for teenage crime. All of the comics were attacked en masse, not just the ones in Wertham's book. The only way that comic books survived was that the publishers self-censored themselves... gutting the content and giving us Batmite, Supermonkey, and loads of similar inane content. If that's what you're proposing, you may avoid the disease, but the patient will still die.

Actually, perhaps Visa and Mastercard will do the job for us. Once they decide that porno is as bad as death fetish material, they may actually shut down the explicit sites, and the rest of us will survive by producing only toy gun videos.

Yes, I'm being a little sarcastic, but also trying to push the discussion along.

Blue

[Max5s]

Blue,

We tend to draw our personal lines in the sand at about the same place. Thematically, most of what we do could be dropped into mainstream media as a part of something else without anyone blinking.

[mikedark]

Blue,

We tend to draw our personal lines in the sand at about the same place. Thematically, most of what we do could be dropped into mainstream media as a part of something else without anyone blinking.

There's things in mainstream horror that are as nasty or worse than anything I have seen in any death fetish vid, and just as sexualized. They aren't sold as sexual products though, so no one seems to notice that the half naked girl is getting penetrated by a huge knife in screaming in a semi-orgasmic manner.

[LadyAsh]

As an aside, I think certain forums add to the dangers we face. By including real death of women in a manner that can be found on search engines it can draw unwanted attention and link the fantasy female death with real female death. If your daughter was murdered would you want to find it discussed on a board that specialized in fantasy erotic death? Even if the board had the best intent in the world, which it really doesn't, it still tends to eroticize the real death, it drools over the details in a manner that can best be described as salacious.

[Bluestone]

As an aside, I think certain forums add to the dangers we face. By including real death of women in a manner that can be found on search engines it can draw unwanted attention and link the fantasy female death with real female death. If your daughter was murdered would you want to find it discussed on a board that specialized in fantasy erotic death? Even if the board had the best intent in the world, which it really doesn't, it still tends to eroticize the real death, it drools over the details in a manner that can best be described as salacious.

Hi Ash,

Very good point. That is why we have FF Rule #10

10) Real Life Killings or Deaths: This is a fantasy board, so reference to real life deaths or killings will not be permitted.

Forums that allow discussions of real death are indeed a risk to our community, and should not be frequented by those who do not want to encourage this form of discussion, and do not want to be targeted along with such boards by the powers that be. This kind of publicity we don't need!

Blue

[xj900uk]

Here here Blue (and thanks for raising the point, Ash). This is a strictly fantasy make-believe site only. If anything I come her eto get away from the real world. Let's keep it in our imaginations and fantasies, please?

[smudger]

This is a two-edged sword in my view. The avoidance of any discussion on All Topics (which ought to be hidden anyway) could leave the impression that there is some guilty conscience on the subject. Real-life murder is one of the most generally discussed matters, and everyone takes an interest; perhaps it is only second to politics..... I think that if it were discussed or commented, then the views expressed would be uniformly of shock, horror, and condemnation; thereby fortifying our position that the fetish is strictly "fantasy only". Anything which was (or appeared to be) a prurient interest in real life murder would be the subject of strong action by the management. I recall we kicked out a member who was posting manips we suspected was of a real person known to him, so tolerance levels are rightly low when anyone crosses that line between fantasy and reality.

[tommygun]

I certainly agree with the view that a clamp down on the porno/fetish material will take down everything, porno or not. That reality won't change what people do, however. Everyone is in their respective camp, running their respective fetish-oriented businesses.

[mikedark]

This is a two-edged sword in my view. The avoidance of any discussion on All Topics (which ought to be hidden anyway) could leave the impression that there is some guilty conscience on the subject. Real-life murder is one of the most generally discussed matters, and everyone takes an interest; perhaps it is only second to politics..... I think that if it were discussed or commented, then the views expressed would be uniformly of shock, horror, and condemnation; thereby fortifying our position that the fetish is strictly "fantasy only". Anything which was (or appeared to be) a prurient interest in real life murder would be the subject of strong action by the management. I recall we kicked out a member who was posting manips we suspected was of a real person known to him, so tolerance levels are rightly low when anyone crosses that line between fantasy and reality.

I can see your point. I've also seen some damn good photostories set to real death images. But I understand perfectly why it freaks people out to bring it up, because there's a fine line between talking about an event and sensationalizing it, and we don't want to do anything to sensationalize real death and bring unwanted attention on ourselves for it. I mean, I don't like the idea of us being a community in hiding (and by us I mean the general death fetish community, not just this board), because I think the way you defeat prejudices and persecution is through educational confrontation, but talking about real tragedies in a way that seems like tabloid journalism or mondo style documentaries or in a way that blurs the lines between the real and imagined doesn't help our case.

[Max5s]

When the axe falls, will it only fall on this explicit content. I doubt it.
Blue

Once the axe falls we all are screwed. The critics will try to wipe it all away. But certain types of actions/productions are more likely to catalyze the event than others. I think most of us have an idea of how extreme something is or isn't. I think some level of self-regulation within the community is prudent. Some have demonstrated that explicit sex can be tastefully done while others stress sheer brutality and humiliation.

[Bluestone]

I think most of us have an idea of how extreme something is or isn't. I think some level of self-regulation within the community is prudent. Some have demonstrated that explicit sex can be tastefully done while others stress sheer brutality and humiliation.

Max5s, I agree that producers can, and should, self-regulate themselves. You and I each have similar lines in the sand. Others appear to be more motivated, or controlled, by profits. In the final analysis, it is out of our hands, and in the hands of the customers. If they continue to buy the extreme material, then there will always be producers who will cash in on this demand. That's really why self-regulation will not work in the current environment. This will only change when such producers cannot maintain a merchant account, and by then probably all producers will be losing theirs.

Blue

[mikedark]

When the axe falls, will it only fall on this explicit content. I doubt it.
Blue

Once the axe falls we all are screwed. The critics will try to wipe it all away. But certain types of actions/productions are more likely to catalyze the event than others. I think most of us have an idea of how extreme something is or isn't. I think some level of self-regulation within the community is prudent. Some have demonstrated that explicit sex can be tastefully done while others stress sheer brutality and humiliation.

I would argue that some stories call for more brutality than others. An interrogation scene by its nature is allowed to go to certain places that say a consensual shooting scene shouldn't. But I agree that it seems like some producers do have a tendency to push the boundaries a little too far, sometimes for stories that don't really call for it. One can argue that it's what the person ordering the custom wants if it's a custom, and that's fair to an extent. One can argue that it's done because art isn't supposed to be safe, and I can see some sense there too. I'm all for art trying to constantly redefine itself and push ever outwards. It might not be what I particularly like, but I'm always willing to applaud someone that shakes off conventions and does something truly confrontational in the name of saying, "Let us not narrow our view of art, but let us once again question it." That can be a crutch though. We see it in the comic book industry and in horror films today, where creators will claim that excessive gore and violence are tools to tell "mature" stories with, when really they're tools of shock used to create word-of-mouth outrage that temporarily boosts sales, and that pisses me off because one can tell intellectually and philosophically rich stories without degrading the value of the characters or the use of a certain storytelling device to the point that they stop holding any meaning.

In our genre as well, one doesn't necessarily need to go for the blood and guts to push the extremes. PST has some of the best acting in the genre, but the stories tend to treat the characters rather poorly, and for being a mostly strangling store, they go so brutal that sometimes it's a turn-off (I think that largely has to deal with how unrealistically long the stranglings are. 20 minutes of ultra-intense strangling in a 30 minute video eventually goes from being really hot, to being a little scary and making you feel sorry for the characters, to pissing you off because it's shattered your suspension of disbelief and started to get boring).

Anyways, I've strayed from my point, which is that I think there's room for intense brutality in our stuff just as there's room for extremes in any medium. The problem lies when it seems that it's an producer's entire output, because not only does it draw a potentially harmful lense on us, but it also devalues brutality as a storytelling device.