Are we Porn?

[Max5s]

now so many times, its innocent girls abducted, tormented, humiliated, tortured and ultimately murdered like they meant nothing to anyone.....ever.

I too am bothered by the above, particularly the humiliation and torture aspects and especially when directed at younger and younger looking victims.

[JohnM]

now so many times, its innocent girls abducted, tormented, humiliated, tortured and ultimately murdered like they meant nothing to anyone.....ever.

I too am bothered by the above, particularly the humiliation and torture aspects and especially when directed at younger and younger looking victims.

There you go. That is good. Everyone is different here and that is what is important. As long as someone here does not become preachy and self-righteous, I enjoy good discussion.

I watched a movie last night that was called Stockholm Syndrome. It was terrible. A pregnant women had her fetus extracted, pummled in front of her, then she later was burned alive in front of her husband. Later, a priest tortures a schoolgirl and rams a razor thingy up her. Needless to say, I fast-forwarded a lot. It was not sexy, and while lots and lots of nudity and perversion, did not fit into my fetish interests at all (except for boobs). This movie premiered at Cannes BTW and has received mixed, but not bad or condemning reviews. The reason is, just what Kelli suggests, I feel. We are desensitized to violence and various subject matters---in movies.

I make that distinction. At least for me, when anything happens in real life, I am just as disturbed--more so even then I was when I was younger--before all this.

While there are movies---horribly disturbing movies out there like August Undergrounds--Mordum in which a young girls body is necrod in a bathtub or in it's sequel a family--all ages are brutally murdered and sexually assaulted---I still feel that they are just movies. My feeling is so what. There is bad in real life and then there is bad in movies. They are apples and pumpkins.

Bad movies abound, there are so many it is countless. Before the internet, they were here, but less accessible. Now, they are far more accessible, yet crime is down significantly since 1991. Why. Perhaps it is the internet, keeping folks busy. Who knows. It is probably unrelated. In the 70's the amount of violent porn was off the charts by comparison. Go over to Japan, and they are the mecca for violent porn and young characters that are actually portrayed on purpose as underage.

There are lots of things in real life that disturb me, but anything in movies, as long as portrayed by adults does not phase me. If I don't like it, I will fast forward or not make the mistake of buying it in the first place. I like good horror movies, but often make the mistake of buying for the previews.....bad idea.

But, that is just me and it is only my opinion. I am not against any one elses opinion. I don't thing anyone should feel they way I do and I don't feel any reason to feel how someone else wants me to feel. It the cool thing about us all being grown ups.

And one final note to Kelli. I do not understand where you are coming from because I am not you. You have a unique and very important perspective that I completely respect. I imagine there are many things keeping me from completely understanding--gender being a big part of it. So, while I will babble about my views and such, to me, yours are just as important and should be shared. I will completely agree with you--stand by you, whenever I can. But on this issue, we have different opinions.

JohnM

[kelli]

alright, one more post by me....then i will let paul get back to his fun-filled existence

thank u all for making me realize a few things, i need you to enlighten me so i can alleviate some of my guilt. and you have. john especially, but all of you in some way.

i had an epiphany of sorts, i think. that man has basically not evolved at all from the earliest times. he is still the same bloodthirsty creature he ever was.....only now he wears old navy instead of pelts. i am convinced that if tomorrow, they brought back throwing people to lions, stadiums would be packed with eager onlookers. and by "man" i don't just mean the male of our species.....tho they are certainly less evolved....duh.

but that's not the epiphany i had. it was that i actually do now believe that violent video games, movies, throwing people to lions, etc is a surrogate for satisfying the bloodlust that is inherent in people. they can vicariously fulfill their need for bloodletting without getting their hands dirty. brilliant! it also explains the drastic decline in the crime rate. all those murders i see on the news are such hyperbole!

and now i am truly done with this topic. until it rears its ugly head in my conscience again. thanks for putting up with me. i mean no harm really. and if i really bother you all that much......just freaking kill me.

[Dalila di Capri]

HI Kelli,

In my case you don't bother me at all.

You are more than entitled to speak your mind, and especially here at this forum you will be respected for your opinions even by those who disagree.

Take my relationship with Paul KHP as an example.

We have almost polar opposite tastes in filmmaking.

His are hard rough super realistic, and concentrate on the sexual aspect of the stabbing shooting gutting (and some strangling I suspect) from the killer's point of view.
His ladies are victims: Beautiful sexy victims, but victims nevertheless.

My films concentrate on glamour, surealisitc beauty, and above all else that fact that every woman getting killed in my story lines is a sadistic bitch who deserves her demise.

His specilay is his FX amd mine is my over all ambiance.

Yet there is always respect between the two of us even though we would disagree as to how a film should be produced. He is brilliant at what he does, and I sense from how he responds to my posts that he respects what I do.

My real life stabbing was at the hands of a hit and run thief. He stole a diamond necklace and stabbed me in the belly. I was in the hospital for 15 days, and took another 6 weeks to recover.

I am the LAST person who would advocate real violence against women because I was almost killed by it.

So I am supportive of your concern. I try to make fims that do not humiliate and victimize women, but I do emphasize the sexual phallic nature of a knife going into a belly.

It is phallic. There is no getting around that fact.

Some who believe in "the law of attraction" would perhaps say that I willed that stabbing upon myself because it was a fantasy of mine before it happened.

I do not believe in the law of attraction and have my suspicions that I was set up by someone who already knew about my fantasy and wanted to "teach me a lesson".

I am sure that I was not stabbed by a necro guy.
So in my specific case I know that my stabbing was not prompted by a necro film.

I am supportive however in your concern that actresses, and women in general are not just treated like pieces of meat.

Dennis of CnB once warded off a particularly pesky stalker on my behalf. I am to this day grateful to him for that action.

On the whole this is a community that respects and supports its actresses and models.

Part of that respect will be demonstrated by how your opinions are treated.

You are always welcome to voice them.

If someone kills you it will only be in a fantasy and only because they think you are as sexy as hell.

Baci

[Bluestone]

Kelli is as sexy as hell, so I would kill her... but only in my fantasies. Kelli, I am happy that you've had an epiphany. Please never feel that you cannot post your opinions here. Not everyone may share your opinions, but I'm sure many do and everyone should respect everyone else's opinions.

Paul, the Blue Devil also respects your opinions on the subject of discussions such as these, but does not agree. Many people here find these discussions very interesting and also useful in helping them to come to grips with their fetish. You must remember that, although you have read many such threads and are obviously very comfortable with your fetish, there are many here who are still struggling with theirs. It's not only the posters who read and enjoy these discussions, it's the lurkers, many of whom may be new to this community and have not even got to the point of posting to share their thoughts with the rest of us. If we were to curtail subjects such as this, our community would be poorer, not richer, as a result.

Having said this, no one is being forced to read or contribute to these threads. There are a lot of threads here that are not deep and controversial at all, but only full of fun and frivolity. If some people prefer to read and post on those threads, that's fine, but I encourage all others to continue to contribute to this thread as well as the other discussion threads on this forum. Oh, and Kelli, that includes you. You don't have to silence yourself. Post whenever the mood hits you. Oh, and as for those lurkers, we'd love to hear from you too. The more opinions, the better the discussion, and the more that everyone will get out of it

All of which is respectfully submitted.

Blue

[Dalila di Capri]

Actually Paul,

I do stay current and have seen some more recent films of yours.

They may not be from this past year, but they are relatively recent, as recent as 2008 unless I am completely off on the dates.

I saw solid lighting, decent acting, fantastic special effects, basically everything I am saying that I see and admire in your work.

Now if you have not seen anything of mine from say 2008 or so I would invite you to take a look at it.

You are a fellow producer so if you want to trade clips I would be more than happy to do so.

But keep in mind that unless what you were posting at CnB last year was horribly old I was watching what you were doing, I was impressed, and I still hold to my assessment that we approach filmmaking from very different perspectives.

I also know that you have particuarly hard feelings about Penn.
Now do you really want to compare a fellow producer such as myself, who expresses admiration for your work, to someone such as Penn with whom you have fought openly on this board?

Do you desire such a war with me as well?

If so, and if you were to start such a war, I hate to tell you this but you will come off looking like an oaf. I am meaning you nothing but respect and sincere friendliness as a fellow producer.
If you don't like my work as much as I like yours, I can live with that.
But really, to compare my comments to the relationship you have with Penn? That seems a bit over the top.

As for telling me what to say and what not to say...well come now. I think you know that I am going to say what I please.

Baci

[Dalila di Capri]

Hi Paul,

Ok this is back to normal, the way I would want it between us.

What I mean to say is that from what I have seen of your work I know you to be one hell of a producer. Obvioulsy your special effects are top notch, and yes the thing that compares in my films to your special effects work is my stage craft. There is no sin in pointing out our strengths.

My more recent films offer solid FX. Not as good as yours, but certainly respectable.

I will bet that your story lines are much more complex than your work from 5 years ago, just as my FX are much smoother than they were 5 years ago. (We are actually re-mastering the old films so that the FX are at least current.)

And no, it's not as though we have beers (or even whoppers) on a regular basis together.
But as I say we have a professional relationship, and much in common.

Neither one of us suffers idiots very well
We both strive to put out the best material we can
We both strive to improve
We both enjoy a seeing a good stabbing to the belly (A female one that is)

Those are some pretty solid reasons to stay friendly with each other on a public forum.

So if I do contrast or compare our styles it is only to show how two producers who strive for excellence can approach things in very different ways and still come up with satisfying material.

I could also compare my films to Blue's. We in fact have very similar styles:
We both have the silk and satin curtains, glamour and cheesecake.

We are two high glam producers, and so far we get along very well.

This isn't to say that you don't do glamour sometimes, or that I don't have something a little more gritty. It's just a matter of general branding.

OH BTW I don't drink much but when I do I drink beer. So that could very well be something else we have in common.

You never know. We may have a beer together one day.

Baci

[Dalila di Capri]

Hi Paul,

Fair enough.

Suggest your favorite Belly stabbing video, something you think I would enjoy that represents your most recent work. (If you have an excellent gutting video again please let me know about it and I will watch it. Those are my personal favorites )

I will go to nicheclips and order it.

You are correct in pointing out the advantage I have in that I am my own model.

I am however branching out and working with other girls.
You will see this material soon.

I do think however that you may also want to watch soemthing I have produced more recently as well.

I would strongly suggest the shootout from "Time to say Goodbye" (part 5)

I'd like to see us all have more time so that we can shoot higher quality work.

This is what I am doing now myself. I am filming most of the scenes I need to do before hand so that when the model shows up I can concentrate on just my work with her.

I would also not underestimate the power of a good menacing male killer.

You are excellent at that from what I have seen. (And I know that I told you that when we spoke over the phone that one time.)

So again this is where I wanted this entire thing to be: Two producers talking about their craft, perhaps disagreeing about certain aspects of production, but offering mutual respect.

Baci

[Nyghtfall]

We are adult erotic horror, which inherently includes various elements of porn.

As for the comments made in this thread, while I respect the opinions of others who've posted here, I will say only this:

When shit happens in real life, that is tragic, and I feel sorry for the people effected. But my fetish has nothing to do with reality. They are two completely separate things.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with my fetish, or fantasizing about women in peril, because that is all they will ever be - harmless fantasies. As such, I will never apologize for my fetish, I will never feel ashamed or guilty for having it, and I will always support the content producers who help feed it.

[tOkie]

Kelli wrote:

i submit the incident that occurred in Calif. last weekend in which several young men gang raped and beat a 15 year old girl while a crowd of people stood and watched. Nobody attempted to stop the attack for over 2 hours. I can't even wrap my head around that.....how can such savagery happen and be condoned by all eye-witnesses?

FEAR

That is one reason these eyewitnesses condoned this inhuman event. Fear that they would be hurt themselves...that they would have to bear witness against the perpetrators and then, by doing so, become victims of those very perps.

I won't even begin (though, I am now) to mention all the press coverage these eyewitnesses would have to endure, the constant barrage of phone calls at all hours, the seemingly endless solicitation for their story to be used to sell newspapers and magazines.


FASCINATION

Another reason they did nothing. They were, as most people are, fascinated by the horrible scene unfolding before them. They were but moths drawn to a flame, as are those of us who slow down and crane our necks when we see a terrible car wreck. Like the audience at the coliseum, recklessly cheering the lion on while sighing with relief that it is not them the beast is pouncing upon.


CONDITIONING (some may use the term: DESENSITIZATION)

Conditioned by reality to act against their instinct to give aid, to quell their impulse to heroic action. They are second guessing what they should do because they have been conditioned to not do the right thing. This conditioning makes people think of themselves first, as opposed to thinking of others.




Just some random thoughts I have



Jeffrey

[felber]

We are adult erotic horror, which inherently includes various elements of porn.

As for the comments made in this thread, while I respect the opinions of others who've posted here, I will say only this:

When shit happens in real life, that is tragic, and I feel sorry for the people effected. But my fetish has nothing to do with reality. They are two completely separate things.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with my fetish, or fantasizing about women in peril, because that is all they will ever be - harmless fantasies. As such, I will never apologize for my fetish, I will never feel ashamed or guilty for having it, and I will always support the content producers who help feed it.

Well said. Another example would be what they periodically try to pull with video games. "Oh My God, Juniors shooting zombies and aliens with a plasma rifle, he's for certain going to be the next canniblistic serial killer."

[JohnM]

I resisted getting Halo3 to play with my son because it is a rated M game. But, I broke down and bought it to check it out. My son's been playing Star Wars Battlefront for a while now and to be honest, the level of violence is about the same and it is a frickken fun game. With cartoons having an average of 400+ violent acts a day, I am thinking what can the harm be?

On Demand in my area has a WB Cartoon channel with tones of great Looney Tunes fare that many of us grew up on. My son recently discovered "Tom and Jerry" and loves it. He especially laughed when in one instance Tom's skeleton was pulled right out of his skin. After they stared at each other for a moment in shock, Tom's furry skin and the skeleton quickly merged back together again so that they could continue the futile chase of Jerry (the mouse).

I made a stupid dad remark of--that's gotta hurt, to which my son replied---"it's just a cartoon, nobody really gets hurt." At which point, I showed him my Halo3 acquisition and we had a killer gaming weekend!!!

One more thing on this subject of games training kids to be killers. Penn and Tellers Bullshit did a whole episode about that with compelling arguments.

http://www.milkandcookies.com/link/168812/detail/

Specifically, go to about the 26 or 27 minute mark. This sequence shows previous unedited footage of what happened after a video game playing child was given the opportunity to "safely" fire a real assault weapon. The whole episode is great, but this moment effected me the most.

Well, in any case, video games are not training our youth to be killers---it's simply bullshit.


JohnM

[kelli]

listen, i am NOT against this fetish. i have it, ffs. i embrace it, but i sometimes have reservations about it. it comes down to men using women's bodies as a battleground for power and control. i have no problem with that. its what my fetish is all about. but at the same time, it just bugs me that my concerns are summarily dismissed. after all, im just a girl....what the fuck do i know. right? i think if some of you were women, you could maybe empathize with my point of view. but you don't. i've read enough smug self-satisfied justification now. this thread is off limits for me.

[JohnM]

Paul---In that Bullshit episode I linked to there was some comments that you might find interesting.

Imagine video games had been invented 100 years before high-school football. There were video game teams, cheerleaders, etc. Everyone was happy. Then, suddenly, high-school football is introduced. Now kids are out on the field, in a real contact situation, including sprained ankles, broken limbs, concussions and sever head trauma. Except, it's not like in the fantasy video game--it is real. Now, the roles are reversed---in a world where fake violent video games were the norm, how would parents react to this new violent, yet real sport. From 1931--2007, 665 kids died playing high school football. Now that is reality.

JohnM

[Storm9]

Maybe to shed a new direction or point of focus or view.

I have been into the fetish for years.. arguably beginning with original Halloween, and a few others. The whole sex and death thing.
Yet I have always been able to keep the real from the fake.

What some of the ladies have been trying to say to the producers, and NOT getting it across it seems.
With what we share, what you do with your business.
Along with the tragic things, going on in th real world.
As a PRODUCER WHAT if anything is a line you will not cross, in what you depict being done to women, in the fetish.
If the answer is NOTHING .. as long as someone is paying for it.
You will happily do anything to a woman, no matter how degrading or even barbaric.

You may not realize it, but YOU have crossed that desensitized line.
If there is nothing you can think of, that is out of bounds...
It does not matter how many times, you may say, but I still respect women. THAT is crap, you don't !!!

The ladies on many of these forums, are being shocked by the LIMP, and often backhanded ways, the guys are hiding behind the fantasy.
They bring up real concerns about what they see being done to women in real life.
To be shouted down or told, yes that is appalling. I WILL BE FILMING MY OWN VERSION of it this week, to be sold shortly.

As much as I enjoy different things in the fetish. There is much that has been going lately, that seems to reinforce or show, just what the ladies have been trying to say.
THEY like it erotic .... sensual, maybe the personal killing.
While more and more it is just forced, vicious, and done for shock value.

Ladies like Kelli, simply are trying to bring to light, the more sadistic, our fetish seems to becoming.The more it parallels and maybe helps feed, the real life violence going on.
It is not being a prude, it is not condemning the fetish.
It is simply trying to get some of us to see, the ladies may like this. Yet they do want to have their likes and tastes taken into consideration as well.

Yet honestly when they do share or speak out. They usually are belittled, talked down to, and left feeling as if they are not respected or that they matter in any way.
Yes, and maybe feeling the outsider, as the guys all pat themselves on the back, and talk about how well the world does it, so be quiet and deal with it.

Sorry so long.. bottom line.... They mainly want to be heard, to see their opinion is given as much consideration as any of the guys. OH and YES they buy this stuff also. So maybe now and again, keep that in mind, and leave out some of the more hardcore elements in a few, and see how they do. You may be surpprised.

That said.... outta here for now.