Is 'Hardcore Sex' Coupled With 'Violence' Illegal???

[Bluestone]

I don't like to be the one to stand up and say WTF?

BUT....WTF?

I have seen a trend in some videos lately that is disturbing.

What I am referring to are the blow jobs and cum glazed mouths and faces of female actors which takes place during the murder scenes.

These types of scenes will bring unwanted attention our way....whether is be the loss of CC services for some of the sites, or possibly legal prosecutions. It can also cause other countries to entertain legislation to protect their citizens by censoring the type of materials I am referring to.

Some people will say that nothing should be obscene. Fine for them....but the majority are not there yet. If the majority decides they don't want other people to see that stuff, then the majority rules. At this present time, the majority would not tolerate others seeing that stuff, therefore, it's obscene and illegal. All it will take is one prosecutor to start laying charges and the jury's WILL convict....of that I have ZERO doubt.

Is all that really needed to make a sale? If so, quit now while you are ahead....and cover all traces of yourself on the Internet....because sure as hell there is a prosecutor being groomed right now to shut that sheet down....and put away the people who are doing it.

Don't count on a jury to save you. Don't count on a lawyer to save you. Count on a prosecutor that will use your own materials in a courtroom and present them in a highly prejudicial manner so the Jury convicts you out of disgust. And don't think it can't happen to you.

Look what happened to DrDon over the last 9 years, and his materials contained ZERO sex acts and only nudity and violence. I thought it was over for DrDon when the Supreme Court of Canada refused to grant Leave to Appeal to the Crown while stating in the decision "no sexual acts depicted." But the prosecutor went ahead regardless of having ZERO evidence of obscene materials. He knew he could get a conviction by simply causing DrDon enough prejudice in the courtroom and thereby excite the biases of the jurors so they would convict.

Don't think because you live in the USA you are immune to prosecution. Look at the Max Hardcore case. He had more wealth from his years in the hardcore sex business than all of the producers on this board put together.....and he had all the answers and knew all the free speech laws, and had a team of lawyers, but it didn't keep his ass from going to jail.

Consider this a friendly warning. :yay:

We can all enjoy a well done performance without the hardcore neecro sex and forced blowjob/cumshot/cum glazed faces.

I'm not saying I don't like hardcore scenes and watching attractive women giving head, gangbanged, etc....but the participants are willing, or portrayed as willing...and there are no portrayals of murder involved. Ya see.....I enjoy hardcore as much as anyone, but not when it's linked with murder.

You could have the hardcore sex performed at the beginning of the movie, then have the characters bumped off later on....without sex as a motive for the murder.

If you want hardcore scenes in your videos...go right ahead....hardcore sex is not illegal.....but do it separate from the death scene, otherwise, sooner or later, a prosecutor will have some cops knocking on your door...and I doubt anyone of you want that, or can afford it.

Just say'n.

I wish everyone well. Merry Christmas and have a Happy New Year. :bravo:

The above is a quote from another message board. I wish John Matrix had contributed such an interesting, though controversal, post to the FF board during his time here. I'm not sure how it will be responded to on that other message board, but I'd be interested in knowing what FF members think about these comments.

In my opinion, I have to agree with John that producers are taking a risk marrying hardcore porn with violence. Dalila's earlier thread asked the question whether or not erotic death fetish videos constitute porn. What John is referring to goes one step further. Videos that contain hardcore porn as well as erotic death fetish elements are in fact porn, and hardcore porn for that matter. The question now has to be, is the marrying of these two genres akin to waving a red flag at a bull, the bull being the legislators and peace-keeping authorities who would like to see this industry shut down.

Thoughts?

Blue

[Dalila di Capri]

Hi Blue

I find this to be a very interesting thread:

I don't consider what I do porn, but others do.

I do have one advantage: I am a woman.

It does take some of the steam out of any potential obscenity charge if a woman is not just an actress but also a producer of this material.

At the end of the day the worst that happens to me in my films could also happen in a mordern traditional horror movie. (Nude gory death scenes during rated R sex happen all the time in Hollywood.)

Since I personally won't go any futher than a traditional rated R love scene I don't have to worry about the "necro pron" barrier at all.

But yes indeed. Some will call what I do "porn" and I have no doubt that some lawyer would have no problem dragging out some of my films to make me look bad.

Let's hope it doesn't come down to that.

I do have some suggestions as to how the material could be more "mainstream":

1. Allow for more men to get killed. If women are not the only sex being killed in the film then it can't be seen as something that just exploits the combination of sex and violence against women.

2. Use the arts. Films such as my "Dido's Lament" and "Madama Butterfly's Death" are already accepted forms of theatre. It's hard to condemn previously accepted artistic masterpieces, even in England.

3. Don't humiliate the actresses. If the female characters are strong, brave, heroic, or evil, then they are not "victimized" by the material. If they are humiliated then they ARE victimized and someone can more easily call it obscene.

4. I am with John Matrix. Cut back on the hard core porn and the erotic horror has a much better chance of being accepted for what it is, rather than being called "extreme porn".

This is my take on it.

Baci

[Max5s]

I'm glad to see this topic picked up here. I don't want to repeat what John said, so I'll just comment that I agree with him.

[JohnM]

I have been making hardcore movies for 15 years. The only people that seem to worry about mixing hardcore content are other producers. I assume it has nothing to do with the overall legalities, but more, where they are located and their personal resources. It obviously costs more to do hardcore if done right with AIM testing and such.

To me, it seems more of an example of personal choice causing issues. There are some producers in the LA area that use hot porn stars and I think, gee, I wish I was in LA. But get over it.

I will say this. Both sell. I do both because I like them both. Obviously a good producer that does not want to do hardcore will sell just fine. Each of my stores--one hard, one not, sell approximately the same.

And, as Paul stated--Sales suck for everyone right now.

As always, I will note these threads are always started by producers who do not do hardcore due to personal choice or restriction in their areas. And these topics come off as speaking for the community. And, since this forum is hosted by a non-hardcore producer, I suspect many of the responses will support that opinion.

So, so add to the mix, here is a poll I posted on my site a while ago. Since about 30% of what I produce contain hardcore content, I suspect my poll leans a bit as well. But, I include it for added perspective, as it is the customers the tend to drive what producers create.

Question: What is hardcore worth to you?
nothing, take it or leave it 19 (13.4%)
a couple bucks 27 (19%)
half the cost of the movie 13 (9.2%)
reduces the chance I will buy 20 (14.1%)
increases the chance I will buy 63 (44.4%)

JohnM

[Bluestone]

Some good comments so far, and I welcome more from both sides as well as from those who are neutral on this subject. As most members know, I didn't get along well with John Matrix when he was a member here, so we didn't cook up a plan to bash hardcore producers to increase personal sales. I just felt that John Matrix raised some good points and that this would make a very interesting discussion topic. JohnM has also raised some very valid points. Now, the fact that I am not a hardcore producer and that I own FF is irrelevant, as far as I am concerned. No one has to agree with my opinions here. Everyone is completely free to take an opposing view from mine. I totally respect and encourage differing views. I love a good debate. So, my motivation for re-posting John Matrix's statements was not motivated by my profit margin. My sales are down for December like everyone else's, but I'm very happy with the customer base that I have, and those looking for hardcore material will not be satisfied by my material anyway. I am not, and never will be seeking to cash in on that market. As far as I'm concerned, I do not compete with hardcore producers for the same market. Obviously, however, their work could be a lightning rod for those who wish to come down on our entire community. Now, I'm not saying that it will or it won't, just that I think it could. The question is, what does everyone else think? Maybe only 1% of the community agrees with me. That's fine, but I'm interested in hearing what the majority does feel, both producers and customers. It's as simple as that

Blue

[Nightposter]

I too see this disturbing trend growing. Paul, you are right, it has been going on for over 2 years, but I think the point is, it is growing and seems to be a "must do" in some productions.

While my personal preference in a fatal scene is more towards seeing a rape, with a fatal climax, a lot of these previews I see or read about feature hardcore sex -after- the fatality, with the violence being the means to get to the necro sex...not my cup of tea.

I think we are all "pushing the envelope" so to speak - in all parts of society...see just how far we can go before something snaps and we get pushed back.
-Ever notice how the speed limit seems to be a suggestion instead of the law?
- How some groups are challenging long standing Christmas displays ( holiday content )
even displays of lighted trees in public owned places?
- the list goes on and on...

I think some of these producers are seeing just how far they can go, but I think it will eventually back fire on them ( and all of us) and we will be back to the days of "under the counter" pics and vids...

OT- my old phone and DSL was to be disconnected yesterday - NOT - I'm still here!
I hope they will pull the plug this weekend, the new service is supposed to go in on Monday..

[tOkie]

I'd like to see some responses from those that aren't producers. I want to know how this affects the average consumer of these videos, as opposed to subjective rhetoric about past practice.

I'd also like to understand why, besides notoriety, prosecutors would even consider taking on anything other than high profile "hollywood" types. There really isn't a whole lot of publicity and/or money that can possibly be gained, just from going after independent producers and production companies.

So:

Come on out, you average consumer type people. Let your opinion be heard here. Does this bother you? Will it influence your buying decisions? Will you rely more on "free" clips that you can glean from the utubs and metatacafes and torrences so easily found around the net? Will you just not bother to come and reply to this, at all?

[Peter]

Sorry tOkie for being another producer in this thread. This is really a topic that hits close to home for several producers.

The only people that seem to worry about mixing hardcore content are other producers. I assume it has nothing to do with the overall legalities, but more, where they are located ...

Actually JohnM, it is very much a question of legalities, specifically the legal situation in where they are located. In Canada for instance, combining hardcore sex with violence is 'specifically' illegal. It is one of the very definitions of obscenity in the law. A Canadian producer doing the sort of material you do, would invite a very quick arrest. Where it gets gray is with the likes of Dr. Don, who did not have 'hardcore' sex in his videos, but only nudity. He got arrested anyway.

I am also 'very' much in agreement with Dalila, with all her points but most emphatically with:

3. Don't humiliate the actresses. If the female characters are strong, brave, heroic, or evil, then they are not "victimized" by the material. If they are humiliated then they ARE victimized and someone can more easily call it obscene.

'Context' is everything.

[JohnM]

While my personal preference in a fatal scene is more towards seeing a rape, with a fatal climax, a lot of these previews I see or read about feature hardcore sex -after- the fatality, with the violence being the means to get to the necro sex...not my cup of tea.

For those who are new to this community, I want to put out a couple of reminders that this portion of your comment reminded me of. And, Nightposter, this is in no way directed at you, I just liked your comments and am using them as a springboard. Plus, I am procrastinating editing.

In 1997 when this all started, rape was very off-limits can considered the biggest "no-no-that-will-get-you-in-big-trouble". In general, the early producers were doing what interested them. Rape did not, though over the 10-12 years I co-ran ruemorgue, it was asked for time and time again in customs, however rarely ever done and when done, was not released as a download offering. To this day, beyond hardcore, retard porn, spitting, roasting, incest themes, torture porn, rape is the biggest taboo and still very, very hard for me to produce.

In 1997, shortly after Necrobabes launched, one of the first sets published was a photoset featuring an amateur couple having necrosex. And, I will tell you, that was the #1 propeller of this genre. Pre, 1997, there were several underground movies circulating that depicted the same and then there was the Japanese contribution--gotta love that.

Yes, for the masses, the community was founded on the idea of necrosex. That was the taboo beyond the longer kill scenes and more nudity. Necrosex started this community and while not all producers do it, they will certainly include the obligatory body pan sequence after the death. I know that producers are not naive enough to think that the majority of the customers that watch that sequence are not fantasizing about something other then, "ahhh--pretty".

But, my perspective might be skewed. I spend a lot of time anylizing sales, reading stories and comments form customers. I figure I have shot around 1800 movies, answered zillions of emails, read as many forum posts over the years. And, I have seen this very argument over the years as well. Should be be roasting girls? Should we be doing rape? Should we be doing incest? Should we be beating someone up? Should we be recreating stories from the news? Etc., Etc.

Ultimately, I find for some the truth is what ever suits them. If someone likes a certain element, then THAT element is OK. Yes, hypocrisy exists here too.

My lawyer is a funny guy. Conservative, friend of the family, big deep voice...kinda intimidating. He does not like horror movies, but he has told me that the porn gives him an understanding of my content. You see, he cannot understand why someone would watch a girl just get killed. He thinks that is very disturbing. But, he can understand why anyone would want to see a hot girl fucked--even when "playing" dead. That was a couple years ago he said that and while I know that there is more too it, to an outsider, like a few of my friends, it is much easier to wrap their minds around the sexual aspect. When I was first doing this, I hired a friend of mind to help. After each scene, we would do some cursory light body fondling of the victim. Later, and remember, this guy is not into any of this, he asked--why doesn't the killer have sex with her. She is naked, she is hot--seems like a no brainer.

Of course, it is a no brainer. If the killer is sexually motivated, that is just logical. When I went into production in 2006, the first thing I did was an incest, rape, necro theme movie called "Loving Sister". That was 3 years ago--I jumped right in head first and never looked back. That was always my style and will always be my style. Luckily, it corresponds with what others like.

As far as the difference between hardcore and soft. An AIM test. So, doing hardcore is safer then doing soft of you consider that in non-AIM tested studios a guy fondling a girl with a cut on their hand can cause all sorts of trouble.

Back to rape. If anything is going to open up the flood gates of scrutiny, rape will. Hardcore, soft, does not matter. Necrosex a girl playing dead all you want, pretend to rape a girl, and it plays out completely differently.

But, look, if you LIKE rape---then it is OK to do. By that logic, if you like necrosex, then it is OK to do too.

Of course, it is all speculation. Most of it simply comes down to some producers not wanting to or not being able to do it and feeling that producers who do have an unfair advantage.

I remember a producer on this very forum that always said, "I will never do hardcore". Then a while back, there was a big to do when he did do hardcore. And, that movie did rocket to the top of the sales charts. Subsequently, that movie dissapeared. In any case, personally do hardcore because I like hardcore. I can sell movies without, but choose not too. The advantage I have buy selling hardcore is an illusion. I have 3 stores, thus, my advantage is due to my production output--nothing more. And, my production output is set based on monthly expenses, not to "crush the competition and take away sales" as some might think.

So with that, everyone enjoy their rape and carnage and have a happy holiday!!!

JohnM

[Peter]

John, I have to say I find that arguement to be on a 3rd grade level and most of your statements are coming off as degrading other producers.

Respectfully Paul, I think you may be misjudging JohnM here. I have not found any of JohnM's comments to be degrading or anything but him voicing his perfectly valid opinion. He and I are for instance, quite different in what we produce, why we do it, where we do it, etc., and our opinions are colored by those differences. Neither of us are wrong. And JohnM is not trying to tell anyone else that they are wrong either. We are all merely expressing our respective opinions, all of which are perfectly valid given the fact that we are different people in different situations.

[Max5s]

I think we need to be careful not to be lulled into a false sense of security because we have been doing this for 2 years, 5 years or even 15 years. In the US, we're done flip flops (at the Constitutional level) on drinking alcohol, and several of the current Schedule 1 and 2 drugs were once used very legitimately by physicians (cocaine and heroin) until the morals squads took issue with them. Like most places, practices go on for years until someone gets their undies in a bunch and then laws go on the books prohibiting everything from marijuana to blow jobs.

If fact, we really don't know who (if anyone) is likely to take serious issue with us, but the more extreme we go, the easier a target we become. A US version of Jane L (using Sarah Brady's tactics) could conceivably accomplish here what was done in the UK. Taking a look at the Max Hardcore case, it wasn't sex that got him in trouble. It was sex plus violence and the humiliation of the "victims" that brought about the obscenity conviction. As a result, I think that the mixing of hardcore sex and violence increases the risk that some overzealous Assistant US Attorney or a "concerned" citizen or legislator might effectively shut our industry down. How many senators and representatives would you realistically expect to vote against a bill presented as action against violent pornography? It's a question that frequently crosses my mind, and I fear that the answer is, "very few".

[Peter]

It was actually myself who defined the the original editorial policy of Necrobabes as to what was allowed in scenes and what was not. I was the web site administrator and I had the final say. It was quite contentious on a few occasions when producers submitted material I felt crossed 'the line' and I rejected it. The motives for the original limitations were entirely driven by a belief that the policy was necessary in order to not inflame the wrath of the censorious, just as Max5s has articulated above. Personally for instance, I would prefer to see hardcore sex in at least certain scenes, but that was prohibited, 'not' because I did not like it, I do, but because I felt portraying that in conjunction with death scenes was dangerous to our community's continued existence. And the prohibition against rape scenes was there for the same reasons.

Those policies largely remained in force and emulated by the few other sites that arose in the early days. It is only in the last few years that a number of other producers arose, utterly unconnected to the original founders of our community, that knew nothing of the original ethos and cared less (JohnM was in fact one of those original founders). Because they wanted to see it and I expect simply because they believed, correctly, that a large market also wanted to see it, they jumped into our community with misogynistic hardcore rape and murder scenes and everything changed. Some saw it as license to join their ranks and produce similar material. The rest of us stood back in dismay and watched our community go to hell.

I believe as a result that it is only a question of time before some crusader ends us all and some of us go to prison. I am frankly surprised that it has not happened yet. Max Hardcore was nothing compared to some of the producers' current fare.

[Dalila di Capri]

I am going to come to John M's defense.

He and I had a very nice meeting a few months ago here in town when he was on a little vacation.

He treated me with respect, and we discussed our productions styles, which are very different.

I did not at all then nor do I now get the sense that John M does not respect me, or is telling me that my films "won't sell" because I do rated R only sex scenes in combination with death scenes.

John has also been good about telling me when clips of mine have appeared on hard core or extreme sites. I am there, not because I am doing hard core porn, but because I am a good loking woman simulating a sex scene while being gutted at the same time.

(A lot of people like that sort of thing in case you haven't noticed )

As to the question at hand: I do think that we are playing with fire and I believe that my production style, as well as Blue's and the other producers who make their movies look like regular crime and horror dramas are making material that would be harder to judge "obscene."

But John M is successful in doing what he does and I am not going to lecture him on the relative morality of my R Rated scenes in comparison to his X rated scenes.

Baci

[JohnM]

Paul, forgive me, I am just going to pick a quote here and there to save my time.

I'm not sure how this is turning into a discussion of "will" my clips sale better with some hard core sex. It is obvious they do.

For me, that is not true. I could see where a newbie producer or a long-time producer of non-hardcore material might see a surge in sales. Or a producer that only producers hardcore might be expected to do that, so the time that they don't, net weaker sales.

But for me, my hardcore and non-hardcore sell just as well. This fact for me is undesputable.

As I have said many times before. I produce content with hardcore elements because I want to. People who want customs with hardcore elements, can, thus, come to me for said content if the model they want that does it is available--or, they can go to 10-12 other producers that do the same thing--probably way cheaper.

The guys who buy it probably want to see a girl yelled at and told she is a piece of crap.

Again, not true. I find I cannot make generalizations about my audience. As a producer of a variety of content and themes, I find that the audience is diverse and intelligent. Many of my customers are a fans of many, many different subjects. This is why I cover so many subjects. I like the variety.

I would find it very hard to defend my stand that I don't actually hate women at that point.

I wouldn't. I just make movies and there is not any evidence in reality that I am misogynistic in any why. I like watching war movies too, but I am actually very much a pacifist and lover of life.

I for one do not wish to cater to people who are looking for an outlet for this hate.

I don't. I make movies with fantasy themes. There are all kind of stories to tell and those are just a small fraction of what I produce. I am proud of them as I am with anything else I do as it takes time and talent to bring a good story to life and keep it from looking cheesy. I would not speculate about a person who jacks off to movies about girls getting repeatedly stabbed is any less worthy then a person who likes a complicated series of torture and torment. Since it is just an extension of Damsel in Distress themes perpetuated by WAVE, ZFX, INSEX, and now KINK, it is not hard to see why the progression. Of course, since no one is really getting hurt, unlike ZFX, INSEX and KINK, I see no problem.

You obviously look at the world thru a completely different set of eyes than the most of the rest of us.

Who is us? How many producers and customers do you speak for? Is this a movement that I am not aware of? I need to get out more, I suspect.

I personally do not think in any way you are taking money out of my pocket because any one who likes what you are doing I'm sure hates what I'm doing because there is no similarity in them whatsoever.

Interesting. I personally know of many of my customers that are yours. Are you ashamed that they buy from you too, or is it ok for customers to have a variety of tastes? (that is rhetorical)

Here is another poll for everyone:

Question: Who you are you buying from most? (I am not listed)
Bluestone - 16 (5.4%)
KHP - 25 (8.4%)
Wicked Works/Vicious Visions - 4 (1.3%)
RueMorgue/Brokentop?Rumspringa - 34 (11.4%)
Grunt Films/Pure Terror/Brutal Tales - 16 (5.4%)
Sleepy Sites: Evangeline/Velvets - 3 (1%)
Bella Morte/Helpless Hotties - 16 (5.4%)
Casualties of Horror/COH Extreme - 52 (17.5%)
Against Her Will - 7 (2.4%)
Super Heroine Sites: Punished Heroines - 2 (0.7%)
Rape Sites: Damsel X/Pro Villian - 2 (0.7%)
Psycho-Thrillers - 67 (22.6%)
Bondage Sites: Bound and Abused/Garwood Media/Powershotz - 0 (0%)
Night Frights - 2 (0.7%)
Inshadow - 17 (5.7%)
Horror Veriety Theatre - 7 (2.4%)
Independents: Tomiko, Dalila, etc. - 3 (1%)
Other--tell me - 14 (4.7%)
Catharsis - 10 (3.4%)

As you can see, this shows plenty of crossover between all the producers, which shows a lot of varying tastes. Some sites, of course, do better then others. I did not include myself in the poll as I wanted to see if the poll played out about the same as the Nicheclips listings. I pretty much did.

But I do think something needs to be done to separate us from the producers

who want to do degrading work.

Now that last quote is interesting. I suppose there would be a consortium put together that would define what they feel is degrading to woman. They can make that decision for the customer and then issue a statement or something.
We could decide that, say, stabbing a woman repeatedly or ripping out her guts while she screams in agony is "not degrading", but having sex with her afterwords "is degrading".

OMG.

Peter--thanks for your comments. THIS post is meant to be sarcastic.

Finally, Paul, not everything you said I disagree with, because I know it is true to you. But, I am a firm believer in doing my own thing and NOT pushing my agenda on others. Granted, I have slipped up from time to time. But, after all--we are only human.

Happy Holidays,
JohnM

[tOkie]

Let me begin by stating that I understand the whole "my name is on the line" concept of being a producer. I understand that there are those self righteous types that would spend everyone's tax dollars to fight this great "crime". What I am truly missing here, is the differentiation between this form of entertainment, being that *is* all it really is, and the similar type made by major movie moguls.

I have seen movies with more female degradation and humiliation, than anything that is presented in this arena. Of course, there are probably some that I am not aware of, that are the exception to the rule. I have seen so many horror (slasher) films from all the decades past, continuing through today, that expound on female degradation. I have seen movies from the early seventies, that, when viewed in the light of this discussion, make me wonder why they were not banned or outlawed then.

I just don't understand where or even why, someone would draw the line.