Music In our Videos

[kevin67]

Hi,

Recently Blue indicated that he would remake the shower scene in Psycho, and that got me thinking (uh oh). Alfred Hitchcock has always been one of my favourite directors and Psycho was certainly one of his better movies. So when the disappointing remake came out, I couldn't believe how bad it was. The movie faithfully copied every frame of the original (why redo scenes that have already been done?) except one of the most important features of Hitchcock's masterpiece.......... the eerie music. The background music was an important part of the fabric of this film and everyone is familiar with and mimics the eerie music played in the death scenes.

This brings me to my questions:
1) How important a role does music play in our death fantasy videos?
2) Should music be incorporated more often in our videos?
3) Where should this music be incorporated (death scenes, scary scenes etc.)
I am interested in some of your comments.

[bakerboy]

Yes to 1)

Cautious NO to 2) and 3) Why?

Music ( and sound effects mix) is paramount to the believability factor. It does NOT depend if it is "in a specific scene" BUT as how the whole movie plays. It can add tension, surprise, sadness, happiness and just about every emotion you can think of. SO it is all about "sound design" NOT just a music in a specific scene.

It frankly amazes me as how producers spent the time and money on making "the pictures", but what is relatively cheap in comparison ( the sound) gets wholy ignored and thus the viewer LOOSES 50 % of the experience because all of the hums, clicks, pops and sometimes even the "bla blas" of the cameraman.

In that you can tell amateur from the pros. NO amount of good pictures can save a clip with a bad sound.

[Rue Morgue]

We started using multiple external mics (of high quality) in our RueMorgue Videos in 2005. Before that we had a couple of better quality camera mics and played with a wireless mic. I'm still not too good with the wireless mic, but mostly our sound has improved vastly since the early 2000's.

About that time we started buying royalty free music. Some of it is quite good, btw, but it can be very expensive. I have already spent over $500 on music for the Checkout Time series and have only edited two of the 5 episodes. It's so gory, I've already had two people whine about the blood and guts on "the other board" and suggest that I put a disclaimer on the post where the link to a preview was. Kinda surprised me that there are squeamish folks in this genre.

Sometimes it's easy and sometimes it's difficult to find music that "fits" the scene. Sound Fx are easy and, as suggested previously, quite reasonably priced.

When I was editing The Crossbow Incident, the actual shooting scenes were lacking something. By finding a whoosh and combining it with an "impact" sound, it made the scene "come alive" if you will. For the victims who were shot through a window, I added in some "tinkling glass breaking" and I think that helped.

Our minds get conditioned to associate certain sounds with certain scenes (in real life as well as movies) and when that association is recreated (visual + sound) in a movie, the credibility (and thus the viewing experience) is greatly enhanced.

With reference to Psycho, there are a number of "replicas" of the psycho sound that are available from the purveyors of royalty free music and sounds. I've used them in several stabbings.

As far as the propriety of music in death scenes. I guess I would say that it depends. But, generally, it seems to be inappropriate at certain times during the actual demise scene. Not sure why that is. But, I can remember one shower stabbing scene that I added some music to. It was an instrumental waltz and the model's final spasms were in near perfect timing with the music, but it sort of "spoiled the moment", and somehow seemed even "irreverant", but then, I've been know for that at times.

Good topic, Mr Moderator!!

[JohnM]

My philosophy has always been to make something with a film-like feel to it. Tweaking the video look and processing at 24FPS is part of that process along with my overall style. But, I find that having a soundtrack enhances everything about the movie.

I am not talking about just throwing some random piece of music in random and often inappropriate spots, but a carefully scored soundtrack.

I remember, back with Ruemogue, sometimes I would spend 1-2 hours manually scoring movie.

And, in the early years, I certainly made some boo boo's. Probably still do. :-)

Well, times are different now.....I have to release several movies a month, so I use faster methods. I tend to just intro and end with music and also use sound sequences for build-up points or places that I want to generate a specific mood. I stay away from layering music over the death sequences where sounds of that sequence are important. I tend to put music over my body pan sequences, etc.

Overall, I enjoy scoring my movies. I have written about 30 original's and have hundreds I have purchased to choose from. I am always looking for more. So, if you make music, I could certainly use it and will give you credit or trade some content.

Thanks,
JohnM

[kevin67]

Hi,

BAKER BOY- You asked a very interesting question on #3 and I think it should be answered. Let me preface my own answer by stating my opinion about the videos offered. I feel the videos that are put out ,should in some way reflect the mainstream to some extent. Just because the budget is small, it doesn' t mean that we can't at least present a story and some of the techiques of mainstream movies, which to me includes music.

Where should we include music is up to the producer. This can be good or bad ,as John and Hank pointed out, depending upon where it is used. Here is a few examples of where it might be used effectively in my opinion.

1) Places where the actor has a scene where he/she is driving or doing something where there is no dialogue. I have seen things like this in videos made by some death fantasy producers.
2) Any place where a producer is making a horror video or plans a scene wher the killer jumps out at you. People jump at the sound of the loud music, just as much as the appearance of the killer or monster.
3) If there is no dialogue and your panning the body, why not put in some music that is appropriate for the scene.
4) I have even heard soft music playing while some dialogue is going on, to help create a mood (love, fear, whatever).

As both John and Hank pointed out, music in their videos does provide another opportunity where the producer can foul up. It also creates more work for the producer ( I can hear them booing now), but it also establishes an atmosphere that should enhance your enjoyment of a particular scene.

Thank you for your interesting point of view and I hope to hear from you again in the near future.

John M and Hank- Thank you for your well informed responses. I always enjoy getting some inside information from the people who make the videos come to life. We have several custom writers, including myself, on this board so feel free to pick our minds.

[bakerboy]

As both John and Hank pointed out, music in their videos does provide another opportunity where the producer can foul up. It also creates more work for the producer ( I can hear them booing now), but it also establishes an atmosphere that should enhance your enjoyment of a particular scene.

Most producers have "some sort" editing program, but they treat the customers a bit with disdain Ergo: "They want FF so who cares, we give them FF". Anyone ( in my book anyway) who makes and sells any kind of videos is a professional (trained or not). If the later is the case, it does not take much to educate themselves.

To wit:
1) Professional editing systeem like Final Cut Pro comes installed with another professional software Sound Track Pro. The later has over 2,000 clips of solo and orchestrated music, infinite number of sound effects and the ability to compose music from supplied elements. All this for less then 5,000 dollars ! and royalty free !!

2) For about 200 bucks anyone can buy very good CD tutorials for both programs and in about a week or two can be reasonably proficient in using one of them. One month for both.

3) Talent is of course not supplied.

Thus, presuming that # 3) is in place, then the investment in time and money is not so great for anyone to become "Hollywood" It just needs care.

Thank you for your interesting point of view and I hope to hear from you again in the near future.

Since I am on a "crusade" for better quality I am sure you will

[Bluestone]

Professional editing systeem like Final Cut Pro comes installed with another professional software Sound Track Pro. The later has over 2,000 clips of solo and orchestrated music, infinite number of sound effects and the ability to compose music from supplied elements. All this for less then 5,000 dollars ! and royalty free !!

Hey Guys and Dolls, and Bakerboy in particular,

I'd have to sell a LOT more videos than I do to justify a $5,000 investment in a video-editing program, even if it does include royalty free music. Heavy hitters like JohnM and Hank can probably afford software such as Final Cut Pro (or probably already have it), since they've been in this game for many years longer than I have. I use two editing programs: Ulead's MediaStudio Pro and Roxio's VideoWave. The Roxio program does come with some royalty free music with a catalogue from which to purchase additional clips for a reasonable cost. I agree that music can enhance, or destroy, the mood of a video, depending on whether it's appropriate and appropriately placed. With a little effort, it's easy for a producer to also create his/her own sound effects. In "Designing Women", Suzi misses with one shot and hits a coffee cup on the table next to Velvet. If you listen carefully, you can hear the cup rattle on the table as it vibrates from the bullet impact... a sound effect easily created using an actual coffee cup on a table. Little touches like this can add a lot to the overall realism of a video.

Blue

[Rue Morgue]

Hey Guys and Dolls, and Bakerboy in particular,

I'd have to sell a LOT more videos than I do to justify a $5,000 investment in a video-editing program, even if it does include royalty free music. Heavy hitters like JohnM and Hank can probably afford software such as Final Cut Pro (or probably already have it), since they've been in this game for many years longer than I have.

Well, gee. I converted to the Apple platform years ago. I simply got tired of PC based programs crashing. The familiar Blue Screen of Death. But, just to get the numbers straight, you can get an MAC 64 bit computer loaded with memory and Final Cut Studio for well under $5000. If you just want just the program and not the "trimmings" you can get it for a little over $1000 (I haven't found "SoundTrack" ® to be all that helpful to me in my editing. I do use some of the Sound Fx).

That said, the lack of a MAC platform isn't a reason that a person can't have music/sound Fx in a video. Most of the PC platform based editing programs do have the ability to lay in music or sound Fx. Excellent sound Fx and royalty free music is available from at least two sites that I'm aware of. The music isn't "free" but you avoid the hassle of royalties and/or being sued for infringement of copyright if you use music unlawfully. Besides, it's piracy to use someone's intellectual property with out permission.

So, if any producer has the goal of trying to achieve excellence in his or her productions, then inclusion of background music and appropriate sound Fx would seem to me to be a must. Part of professionalism, I suppose.

And, thanks so much, for the "heavy hitter" moniker. LOL. I'm a pretty small potatoes, low volume producer. I only do about 10 or so shoots each year. I am gravitating towards longer, more mainstream ones because the trend toward hardcore is not an arena in which I wish to compete (acting or producing ).

[bakerboy]

Hey Guys and Dolls, and Bakerboy in particular,

Hey Guys,

Firstly, I did NOT intented to be critical of anyone. My post above was meant to be business advisory.

I am from the "old school" of business ( any business). This being: "the return is proprtional to your investment". So, no money in, no money out" ( you can replace "no" with "little").

By looking on the popularity of this ( and related) genres, I firmly belive that if the videos looked ( and sounded !) more "Hollywood" you can sell more of them and for more money.

If making 10 videos/year that would add $ 500 per video ( and only in the first year). I am sure that twice as many would be sold and maybe for a higher price. The math is then not so difficult.

[bakerboy]

The music isn't "free" but you avoid the hassle of royalties and/or being sued for infringement of copyright if you use music unlawfully.

Indeed once you pay for the Soundtrack pro software you have paid for the music. Of course it does NOT become yours BUT yes you can use it royalty free. In other words you do not have to pay for it again. That is what I meant.

[Rue Morgue]

Indeed once you pay for the Soundtrack pro software you have paid for the music. Of course it does NOT become yours BUT yes you can use it royalty free. In other words you do not have to pay for it again. That is what I meant.

I actually meant music that is available from sites like "sound dogs" and "freeplay music". They have many varieties and many excellent, written for small producers, compositions of nearly every "mood" and "feeling". Pretty amazing really. Not cheap, though. The Sound Fx are actually pretty inexpensive. All of them, just about, have really excellent production quality. Soundtrack Pro® has good SFx and loops you can use for making your own background "theme" but they are more limited, more time consuming and require more musical talent than I was endowed with.


Three or four years back, I experimented with royalty free music with vocals and now I am using it more often. It takes a little while to search for it. The first time I used it was when Candy was listening to the radio and during her makeup while Lydia was asleep in bed. It was so effective in upping the production values (IMHO) that I've tried it several times again.

I've found a great song for when Gail Loomis and Nikki Adams are driving to the motel in the final episode of Checkout Time. I liked it so much, it's now on my iPod.

Anyway, this continues to be a great topic and I do appreciate the feedback from those who see the productions from the consumers or critics point of view.

[JohnM]

I'd have to sell a LOT more videos than I do to justify a $5,000 investment in a video-editing program, even if it does include royalty free music. Heavy hitters like JohnM and Hank can probably afford software such as Final Cut Pro (or probably already have it), since they've been in this game for many years longer than I have.

True, I do have FCP and have been on Mac since 2000. Final Cut Express is $150 at Amazon.com. A good Powemac G5 used, loaded (sometimes with FCP already) is $600-800.

I can edit on any program. While the programs are nice and editors will lean to different software and platforms as preference...i.e. Avid, Ulead, Vegas, Pinnicle, Pre(yuck)mier...I have used them all. But, it's not the software that makes the movie...it's the human doing the editing that counts and even more, the raw footage he has to work with. An editor is nothing more then slightly more complicated word processor. Cut and paste, drag and drop, apply effects...all editors have the same basic stuff needed to make an awesome movie...yes--even Windows Movie Makers (I have done a few on them in a pinch). My first editing software for a couple years was Camera to VCR.....pause-record-pause. And the titles--videotaped printouts. :-)

OFF TOPIC
Here is something fun, a 3 minute music video I did. 3 hours of footage, 30 hours of editing--never got paid, so this was not the final edit. Flaky rappers: http://jmhstudios.com/lexxi/bobby_lovable_1a.wmv

JohnM

[bakerboy]

Here is something fun, a 3 minute music video I did. 3 hours of footage, 30 hours of editing--never got paid, so this was not the final edit. Flaky rappers: http://jmhstudios.com/lexxi/bobby_lovable_1a.wmv

Cute and funny. Kudos to the editor! The music is also good. The cameraman though needed some help. Not even the best editor can make a purse from a sows ear. My very point.

[JohnM]

I have never met anyone that has owned a mac and not liked it, so I am assuming then degrading mac ownership it comes out of some perceived notion that mac owners feel superior to PC owners. Ahh contrar. I have owned about 30 PC's and 3 mac's. I have edited around 1200 movies, represented by 2-3 thousand hours of footage and probably around 20k+ hours of editing time over the last 14 years. I have edited on both--the first 3-4 years I did all my work on a PC....then half and half for up to the last year or so. I finally dropped PC's completely about a year ago after an incident that never, ever, ever happens on mac. And, since the price is the same (if not less)when compared to overall use experience by me over the years, it was a no brainier. I would never diss the PC. I would diss Windows Vista. It is fine for some things. If I was a gamer--I would get a PC. If I want something for everything because I did not want multiple computers (and I like to play games), I would get a PC. But, as I said, I used both a PC and a Mac for years, thus have plenty of experience with both systems and OS. The PC was for email, photoshop and other applications, the Mac was dedicated for editing. It is easier to keep it separated. I could have done it with two PC's, but I like FCP interface better then Premier. And, why I said YUCK, was based on old crappy version of Premier as Paul mentioned. I never had problems with FCP....started with 1 and now am at version 6.5HD. Crashes, I get....mmmm, once every couple months I will get one I suppose. Anyhow, if I wanted something that holds up like FCP, probably Avid Media Composer would probably be closest, though, I have used Vegas when I had my PC, and that had pretty logical workflow. Also, right now, there are about 50 viruses for the Mac, 6 of them were active in the last couple years. Only 1 new one is floating around networks recently, but I was patched against that the next day. For PC there are well over 1 million in addition to malware. With the industry I am in and the type of sites I surf...it just made more sense on that level too.

Anyhow, PC or MAC, just use what is best for your circumstance.

JohnM

[JohnM]

No, no, I have not high horse to get up on about a mac. Just for me, it's my rock. It's my livelyhood. So, if I invest 3 times what a comparable PC was 2.5 years ago, it is most likely faith-based. Besides--bigger tax write off.

JohnM